Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 18, 2020 18:06:57 GMT
I am sorry if I am stepping on US patriotic toes, but why the daft tips on these M1833's? Looks not fish nor fowl. At least the Prosser looks like it knows where it's going. Don't scalp me please. Too tired to run away. :)
What may be of interest where the replicas are conserned is the question whether they have a real pipe back or just as, if I remember correctly, some Cold Steel pipe back replica which had a square bar instead of the round pipe, which in turn p!ssed off many people at the time?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:09:13 GMT
What do you believe the reproductions are missing in terms of performance? I wonder if the originals were deficient in terms of performance. There were complaints about the blade being too light to facilitate a good thrust, but other than that and the complaints about the scabbard, it seems to have been a success. Albeit, it was a short success as the 1840 came around to supplant it. One wonders how long these things were in circulation.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:11:39 GMT
I am sorry if I am stepping on US patriotic toes, but why the daft tips on these M1833's? Looks not fish nor fowl. At least the Prosser looks like it knows where it's going. Don't scalp me please. Too tired to run away. Despite its faults, the Windlass reproduction has a more symmetrical looking point, even if it is missing the curvature, although maybe that's an improvement. I wonder if it is more effective with the thrust having a symmetrical point and a straight blade.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 18, 2020 18:22:39 GMT
I have edited my comment above as to question whether the replicas have a real round pipe back instead of a square bar.
I did a quick google search on the M1833 and saw that there where indeed two types. One (Ames?) with the straight blade and one with the curved. As far as I can see both replicas seem to be close, qua looks, to their originals. The scabbard drags are per usual overly large but this gives plenty of material to be able to file them back and have the little scrolls like the originals I saw.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:35:53 GMT
No, there was just one Ames 1833 dragoon model (curved). There were imported variants, all curved.
The other 1832-1833 (Ames, Widmann and Horstmann) was a straight general officer's sword, quite like a British 1796 hc dress sword. IIRC, the latter somewhat discussed here. Another 1832 was the foot artillery sword (see French 1816).
Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:40:03 GMT
The same 1833 pipe back barred hilt Ames was also adopted for topographical engineer officers.
The 1841 Ames eaglehead pommel naval swords were a pipe back.
Cheers GC
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 18, 2020 18:41:02 GMT
Thank you very much. So Windlass copied a general Officers sword and Univeral a regular (troopers) M1833 Dragoon?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:42:27 GMT
Thank you very much. So Windlass copied a general Officers sword and Univeral a regular (troopers) M1833 Dragoon? This is another reason why I am inclined to go with the Universal replica. At least it looks more accurate visually. I have no idea how it would handle physically. I have no reason to believe it couldn't handle some cutting and thrusts. Why shouldn't it?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:44:40 GMT
Thank you very much. So Windlass copied a general Officers sword and Univeral a regular (troopers) M1833 Dragoon? No, Windlass produced a really bad reproduction. The aforementioned 1833 general officer's sword is an entirely different animal and a copy of the British 1796 hc DRESS sword. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:45:54 GMT
Thank you very much. So Windlass copied a general Officers sword and Univeral a regular (troopers) M1833 Dragoon? This is another reason why I am inclined to go with the Universal replica. At least it looks more accurate visually. I have no idea how it would handle physically. I have no reason to believe it couldn't handle some cutting and thrusts. Why shouldn't it? IMO, both are pretty poor takes on them. The Universal a bit better.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:49:34 GMT
"Poor" seems a bit harsh. It's not as though the Universal model does not look like the originals in terms of aesthetics. What would be your main gripes with the reproduction by Universal? I appreciate your honesty.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:55:39 GMT
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Post by Spathologist on May 18, 2020 19:09:59 GMT
The Texas Dragoon models were identical to the US M1833 with the exception of the engraving. Furniture and blades were US government inspected and passed. Ames supplied several state militias with the M1833. I have one supplied to the National Lancers of Massachusetts, procured from the Springfield Armory but not inspected by the USG. It also has a brass scabbard. Thillmann's work on Civil War cavalry sabers has several pages of information on the M1833. All the reproductions offered are very poor copies. They are more interpretations than reproductions.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 19:13:07 GMT
FWIW, the officer's version of the Ames 1833 dragoon sabers had gold wash hilts and fish skin grips. A select contract were etched for Texas. I'd pull the pages again but I'm thinking a nap right now. The Ames Sword Company, 1829-1935 Hamilton, John D. ISBN 10: 0917218183 / ISBN 13: 9780917218187 (out of print) Best price, going fast simpsonltd.com/the-ames-sword-company/The Hickox Guide Slim but important numbers and text www.amazon.com/Collectors-Guide-Contract-Military-Weapons/dp/1877704113Cheers GC Snorable below Look at the originals, look at the reproductions, spend as you like. The British 1821 I posted on the first page was an impulse buy but I'll learn to love it. A Wilkinson from the 1860s. Something tells me I'll still look at reproductions, indeed lust over some but a numbered sword from history fills my interest more. So yes, lust over the reproductions and even buy them but if wanting for historical background (imo) pay the dues of some books. We may spend thousands on modern made swords and may overlook books entirely, too often relying on small articles or videos.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 19:16:22 GMT
I'm making note of those sources, edelweiss. It might surprise you to learn I have degrees in history. I can choose to be more scholarly if I wish, and I actually think I will in this respect. I have inter-library loan privileges, so I can track down these books. I'll start with The Ames Sword Company. If only modern day forges could get their hands on these sources...
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 19:18:41 GMT
"Poor" seems a bit harsh. It's not as though the Universal model does not look like the originals in terms of aesthetics. What would be your main gripes with the reproduction by Universal? I appreciate your honesty. Sorry but I'd say look at some more pictures of originals. There are plenty to look at. Yes, Universal does a better job but no thanks. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 19:32:12 GMT
I'm making note of those sources, edelweiss. It might surprise you to learn I have degrees in history. I can choose to be more scholarly if I wish, and I actually think I will in this respect. I have inter-library loan privileges, so I can track down these books. I'll start with The Ames Sword Company. If only modern day forges could get their hands on these sources... The Hamilton Ames history is a good start and yes, Ames became a huge manufacturing plant with swords almost the least of it in the end. If you are really into history, devour all you can find beyond that book and go back to the expansive growth of the family going back to the 17th century. I'll continue to spend most of my time on a few decades of the US sword economy predating the Ames Co. but somehow also have had the time and some texts. The Ames foundries went from nothing to enormous. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 19:38:34 GMT
The Texas Dragoon models were identical to the US M1833 with the exception of the engraving. Furniture and blades were US government inspected and passed. Ames supplied several state militias with the M1833. I have one supplied to the National Lancers of Massachusetts, procured from the Springfield Armory but not inspected by the USG. It also has a brass scabbard. Thillmann's work on Civil War cavalry sabers has several pages of information on the M1833. All the reproductions offered are very poor copies. They are more interpretations than reproductions. I jealous enough of your US cavalry swords before dangling that thing out. Also of the Thillmann cavalry book
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Post by Spathologist on May 19, 2020 3:31:21 GMT
I jealous enough of your US cavalry swords before dangling that thing out. Also of the Thillmann cavalry book :D Lol! And I am equally jealous of your eagles and spadroons!
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