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Post by uzitm on May 12, 2020 13:18:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 13:29:22 GMT
That's a sexy looking sword, beautiful lines. Uhlan, Dave Kelly, or Jordan Williams might know something about it.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 16:18:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 16:32:18 GMT
My goodness, I cannot believe I forgot to mention you, edelweiss. Of course you would know something about this sword!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 12, 2020 22:19:19 GMT
This is a private order sword for an Officer of the Armee d'Afrique. You can tell because of the standing sword knot slot. Only Armee d'Afrique Officers swords have those. Nice sabre. Whether it is Cavalry I cannot tell. Many were made for Officers of the Chasseurs a Cheval but Chasseurs a Pied too as these Officers too were often mounted. The trend to have these special swords started quite early, say after 1850. I have my eye on one with a similiar hilt but with a blade with poincons from 1838. These Armee d'Afrique Officers swords are great fun to collect. You see many weird and exeptional blades mounted on interesting hilt designs. And old blades in newer hilts as I said. The blade was made by Coulaux & Cie Klingenthal. The poincons I cannot read as these are partially covered, but with the inscription and the crown in oval at the tip of my head I'd say between 1860 and 1865. You need a clear picture of those poincons to date the blade for sure. If you have the poincons cleaned up you could look for them here: klingenthal.chez.com/marquages_coulaux.htmHope this answers your question. Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 22:40:29 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 13, 2020 8:07:15 GMT
The standing slot is one of the criteria of Armee d'Afrique swords whether you like it or not. Look in l'Hoste for instance and on diverse French fora. This is a general accepted fact. Rule of hand. That does not mean that Armee d'Afrique all had them. Some do not. What can be said however that these vertical slots in general do not seem to appear on regulation French (Home) Army swords. As the Armee d'Afrique swords are, again generally speaking, often far outside the box qua design, you're bound to find some with horizontal slots as well if you were to look for them. Doesn't mean the general rule is faulty. Just that there are exeptions. As always. The provenance of the sword you show is questionable by the way. Based on what? The exeptional hilt? These hilts were at the time quite often seen on regular French Army swords. Auction House expertise? This sword is just a late, after 1872, regular French Army Cavalry Officers private order sword from a period where all kinds of designs did turn up in the regular army. These hilts you show here, Preval blades, tripple fullered blades. M1889 variants. You name it and you'll find all kinds of ,,experimental '' stuff. There is a bunch of those in l'Hoste. This one has nothing to do with the Armee d'Afrique as far as I can tell. The fun of the Armee d'Afrique swords is that this ,,experimentation'' started much earlier, around 1845-1850 in a serious form and here and there even before that. Lots of the Officers were Preval adepts. See a lot of Preval like stuff in the AA. In one of my threads I even suggested that the French Army allowed this to happen because it was a great and cheap way to have designs tested in battlefield conditions. The M1882 hilt had its roots in AA swords from the 1860's. No sir. Just because this so called database says it's Armee d'Afrique because of an auction house say so, doesn't make it Armee d'Afrique. It's a late 19th C private order Officers sword of the regular army. It even has the horizontal slot. Edit: Oh and the blade looks like either an Infantry Staff Officers blade from after 1855 (start of the fullers changes there) or a late version of the Cavalry M1854 blade. Hard to tell, though the hilt suggests Cavalry. Before I forget: It looks like the sword in question here has a damast blade? Or was the blade leached out during rust removal? If the former then this would be quite the find. The French did not do much with damast as far as I know. Cheers.
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Post by uzitm on May 13, 2020 8:29:28 GMT
thank you for the information. unfortunately, I don't have a scabbard for it. I would like to buy a scabbard if someone has one that fits
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Post by uzitm on May 13, 2020 8:34:25 GMT
The standing slot is one of the criteria of Armee d'Afrique swords. Look in l'Hoste for instance and on diverse French fora. This is a general accepted fact. Rule of hand. That does not mean that Armee d'Afrique all had them. Some do not. What can be said however that these vertical slots in general do not seem to appear on regulation French (Home) Army swords. As the Armee d'Afrique swords are, again generally speaking, often far outside the box qua design, you're bound to find some with horizontal slots as well if you were to look for them. Doesn't mean the general rule is faulty. Just that there are exeptions. As always. Before I forget: It looks like the sword in question here has a damast blade? Or was the blade leached out during rust removal? If the former then this would be quite the find. The French did not do much with damast as far as I know. Cheers. I think it's Damascus. At least that's what it looks like
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 13, 2020 8:47:17 GMT
Well in that case, scabbard or not, you have quite the find. If you give me the measurements, thickness at the guard, width at guard and the length of the blade, I can have a look and see whether it will fit in a regular M1882 scabbard. Did you have a look at the poincons?
Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 10:05:35 GMT
It is not a matter of whether I like a comment or not, it is when you pose an absolute and then allow exceptions in your own text. I understand there may be language differences but you are posting absolutes and then retracting such. "That does not mean that Armee d'Afrique all had them. Some do not. What can be said however that these vertical slots in general do not seem to appear on regulation French (Home) Army swords." "You can tell because of the standing sword knot slot. Only Armee d'Afrique Officers swords have those." So, it is not if I like something or not, it is the way you phrased the instance. From the first thread I posted is an image you provided So again, a "standing slot" but not listed specifically to the African army. What I am getting at is your tendency to list absolutes, when you do accept exceptions. I tend to list stuff as some vs always. l' Hoste itself is comprised of collector knowledge and as such, always being added to. I don't own them yet and just added an old volume of Wagner, itself fifty years old "factoids" no mas, just looking for clarification. Cheers GC an edit in addendum, my first reply was fairly explicit regarding my own example" "I've had several explanations offered" I'm not the one playing professor in the matter The linked site provides that publisher's bibliography, so maybe contact him about his site. www.swordsdb.com/SwordsDB_Bibliography.php
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 13, 2020 17:56:12 GMT
The image says ,, Infantry Coloniale''. That's just another way to say ,, Armee d'Afrique''. Armee d'Afrique includes the forces in Asia, well everything outside of France. It has the vertical sword knot slot I might add. Though in the case of the M1845 type it could have been a Navy Infantry Officers sabre too. These had the vertical slot too. See? Exeption to the rule. I may be absolute at times. Granted. Does not mean the standing sword knot slot is not a feature of Colonial army swords. And the fact that some do not have it just proves that there are always exeptions to any rule. Still leaves the rule standing: See a vertical sword knot slot, it is safe to say that the sword was for the Armee d'Afrique. If I remember correctly Petard has an Armee d'Afrique sword in the images, also with the vertical slot. Think I saw it in the Bertrand Malvaux Petard collection somewhere. It is not as much a language problem. Early, just awake, coffee level under ,,functional'' and a bit of character too I am afraid. :) (+ a colichemarde waiting in the work shop). I learned my lesson to never try to correct sellers and ,,experts'' if I can help it. Response is often below par and I do not like to waste time.
There was a time, long ago, when people called me ,,the professor''. You're spot on.
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Post by uzitm on May 13, 2020 18:48:16 GMT
Well in that case, scabbard or not, you have quite the find. If you give me the measurements, thickness at the guard, width at guard and the length of the blade, I can have a look and see whether it will fit in a regular M1882 scabbard. Did you have a look at the poincons? Cheers. I tried a scabbard from a regular 1882 and it doesn't fit. The lenght of the blade is 86 cm, width 2.8 cm,thickess 8 mm. I can't see more of the poincons beacuse the leather is between the blade and guard. I collect swords for almost 3 years and this one was the first i bought. Thank you again for the information.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 19:07:40 GMT
The image says ,, Infantry Coloniale''. That's just another way to say ,, Armee d'Afrique''. Armee d'Afrique includes the forces in Asia, well everything outside of France. It has the vertical sword knot slot I might add. Though in the case of the M1845 type it could have been a Navy Infantry Officers sabre too. These had the vertical slot too. See? Exeption to the rule. I may be absolute at times. Granted. Does not mean the standing sword knot slot is not a feature of Colonial army swords. And the fact that some do not have it just proves that there are always exeptions to any rule. Still leaves the rule standing: See a vertical sword knot slot, it is safe to say that the sword was for the Armee d'Afrique. If I remember correctly Petard has an Armee d'Afrique sword in the images, also with the vertical slot. Think I saw it in the Bertrand Malvaux Petard collection somewhere. It is not as much a language problem. Early, just awake, coffee level under ,,functional'' and a bit of character too I am afraid. (+ a colichemarde waiting in the work shop). I learned my lesson to never try to correct sellers and ,,experts'' if I can help it. Response is often below par and I do not like to waste time. There was a time, long ago, when people called me ,,the professor''. You're spot on. Oh, I am sure lettered authors have nothing to offer your own expertise. www.swordsdb.com/index.phpbenoit@swordsdb.com
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 13, 2020 20:56:03 GMT
That's called ,,experience''. Let it go my friend. Old tricks do not work anymore. I do not have time for that cr@p. Pity the M1882 scabbards do not fit. I do not have an alternative at the moment. Could try: www.jjb-collection.com/ . Mr. Buigne has an old parts section. Shoot him an email translated to the French with the numbers. He sees more stuff than us. Cheers
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 21:16:40 GMT
"Old tricks do not work anymore." Just an observation, my friend.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 21:36:56 GMT
A wealth of knowledge between the two of you and yet you slap each other with lilies.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 21:52:14 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 13, 2020 22:47:41 GMT
8-)
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Post by uzitm on May 14, 2020 4:58:34 GMT
That's called ,,experience''. Let it go my friend. Old tricks do not work anymore. I do not have time for that cr@p. Pity the M1882 scabbards do not fit. I do not have an alternative at the moment. Could try: www.jjb-collection.com/ . Mr. Buigne has an old parts section. Shoot him an email translated to the French with the numbers. He sees more stuff than us. Cheers Thank you
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