Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on May 10, 2020 17:21:10 GMT
Hi,
Most production swords have two mekugi. The idea behind this is, thats safer, it is also a fact that the tsuka of a production katana is not completely custom-made, but often the tsuka are made in large amount and the tang are struck, resulting in cracks or high tension in the wood.
Old Japanese swords often have 1 mekugi, but on the other hand, parts are completely custom-made for the tang.
What is usually preferred and considered more safe? I have my own thoughts about that but wonder how others see it.
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Post by paulmuaddib on May 10, 2020 17:56:21 GMT
I feel it’s a bit of a strange question. As you said, production Tsuka are not custom, so I would prefer two mukugi in them for safeties sake. Nihonto, which I guess would be considered custom swords, were used in real combat so it seems one mekugi is sufficient for safety. And in a modern custom, which I doubt I’ll ever have, I think one would also be sufficient. So my preference would be for whichever is going to be the safest. And I didn’t vote above because of this.
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Post by treeslicer on May 10, 2020 18:14:21 GMT
Hi, Most production swords have two mekugi. The idea behind this is, thats safer, it is also a fact that the tsuka of a production katana is not completely custom-made, but often the tsuka are made in large amount and the tang are struck, resulting in cracks or high tension in the wood. Old Japanese swords often have 1 mekugi, but on the other hand, parts are completely custom-made for the tang. What is usually preferred and considered more safe? I have my own thoughts about that but wonder how others see it. I feel it’s a bit of a strange question. As you said, production Tsuka are not custom, so I would prefer two mukugi in them for safeties sake. Nihonto, which I guess would be considered custom swords, were used in real combat so it seems one mekugi is sufficient for safety. And in a modern custom, which I doubt I’ll ever have, I think one would also be sufficient. So my preference would be for whichever is going to be the safest. And I didn’t vote above because of this. It's got little to do with production versus custom. All the writers who deal heavily with practical use (including iai kata) recommend that two mekugi be used. Nakamura is particularly vocal on this issue, gives some horror stories, and recommends that one of the mekugi be brass. People have been actually killed by blades flying into the stands at Japanese iai performances. Given that, if you are doing tameshigiri, where the forces are greater, the issue is even more serious. I've had a mekugi shear before, and am a confirmed believer in using two.
Multiple mekugi holes are common in older blades (all my koto have them), and weren't all due to tsuka changes. so the concept's been around for a few hundred years.
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Post by nddave on May 10, 2020 18:17:29 GMT
Two. I mean technically you only need one as the second doesn't really do much aside from be a fail safe for the first but still better safe than sorry.
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Post by treeslicer on May 10, 2020 18:31:55 GMT
Two. I mean technically you only need one as the second doesn't really do much aside from be a fail safe for the first but still better safe than sorry. Both mekugi will carry some of the force during a swing, so having two isn't just a fail-safe, it's a more reliable installation, lowering the stress on both mekugi.
BIG safety warning! Gunto oddly were designed with only one mekugi, and most reproduction gunto (like the one I reviewed) copy this deficiency. It's best to drill a new mekugi-ana, and add a second mekugi to these.
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on May 10, 2020 18:37:27 GMT
I really tell my kids: discussion or questioning is the right vehicle for progress. But anyway, I am just curious how sword lovers and purists are thinking about this matter. Just opions, maybe there is not 100% right or wrong, we people seems to like this, makes things to categorize in this or that. In my opinion a sword is also usefull to kill the ego. I do have some real japanese sword with only one mekugi, so yes, the surely sometimes have 1 mekugi-ana, no doubt about that.
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Post by treeslicer on May 10, 2020 19:57:49 GMT
I really tell my kids: discussion or questioning is the right vehicle for progress. But anyway, I am just curious how sword lovers and purists are thinking about this matter. Just opions, maybe there is not 100% right or wrong, we people seems to like this, makes things to categorize in this or that. In my opinion a sword is also usefull to kill the ego. I do have some real japanese sword with only one mekugi, so yes, the surely sometimes have 1 mekugi-ana, no doubt about that. WADR, this isn't a matter for artistic or philosophical interpretation. It's engineering. The use of multiple mekugi is an example of positive progress. It's analogous to the use of chrome ordinance steel for high-powered smokeless-powder rifle chambers/barrels, instead of the mild steels or even soft iron traditionally (and still often) used for black powder weapons, being an improvement in both safety and durability. This is pretty much of a dead issue, BTW. Reinventing the wheel just to be different isn't a great idea.
With regard to historic nihonto with artistic and investment value, however, you should leave them as you found them. Just don't go cutting stuff in your back yard with them, or swing them around in the dojo, especially if they only have one mekugi. It's not worth the risk..
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Post by shepherd214 on May 10, 2020 21:13:29 GMT
School of thought is that if it's a cheaper sword then two for safety, if it's made properly one should be enough. I dont see the disadvantage of using two regardless though. Some people think its more aesthetically pleasing to only have one. I think it's a very minor thing to gripe about.
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Post by Lord Newport on May 10, 2020 21:29:15 GMT
From Nakamura Taizaburo Mekugi. Swordsmanship is one martial art in which safety is of paramount importance. Always check the mekugi prior to practice, even if you are alone. Replace any mekugi that is thin, broken, or appears weak. Failure to do a safety check can lead to disaster. A high school student was killed in Japan while he observed an iaido demonstration. The performer's blade was thrown from its handle into the audience because the mekugi had slipped from its housing. This terrible accident could have been prevented if the performer had checked his handle prior to the demonstration. Ideally, the primary mekugi should be made of bamboo. Bamboo is the preferred material because it is flexible; even if it breaks, the fibers are resilient enough to prevent the blade from being propelled across the room. The handle should be designed so that the mekugi can be inserted from only the side of the tsuka which is covered by the palm. Therefore, the primary mekugi should be of bamboo, inserted from the right side of the handle; the hikae (reserve) mekugi should be manufactured of iron or steel and inserted from the left side. The metal-to-metal fitting of hikae mekugi to nakago might be smooth, lacking sufficient friction to lock in. Create a firm fit by roughening the outside of the metal mekugi with a file, hacksaw, or wirecutters. The resultant "teeth" will bite firmly into the soft steel of the nakago and prevent the metal mekugi from slipping out during training. I n the interest of safety, pracioners of Toyama Ryu and Nakamura Ryu utilize two retaining pins (Fig. 6).www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articleh.htmI own a gendiato made by a smith in WW2 to the Japanese general headquarters staff and four custom Howard Clark blades, polished and mounted by Ted Tenold with custom tsuka/koshire and they all have two mekugi ana /mekugi. I am a practitioner of Toyama Ryu , ZNBDR and Mugai Ryu. I own one production katana and it too as two mekugi.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 21:45:53 GMT
Keith Larman had some good observations regarding the subject.
With a properly fit tsuka, the one mekugi will be tapered on one side, not as a cone. The taper will draw the tsuka tight.
Many production katana are fitted with two, and done so by hammering on a tsuka and then drilling two holes for basically slightly conical mekugi.
Two mekugi somewhat fight each other but it has become a norm.
Delrin is popular.
Cheers GC
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Post by tancred on May 10, 2020 21:55:31 GMT
While not much of a cutter, I'm all for safety. Two mekugi seem like a good idea for me. I don't own any antique katana. Only modern, production.
One one side of the spectrum, I bought three bare katana blades made by Windlass. One was all about the owner's customization, and so came with no mekugi-ana. The other two only had one mekugi-ana.
On the other side of the spectrum, I have two Last Legend katana, and they both have three mekugi.
Cheness katana go with two mekugi, one of wood, the other of brass.
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Post by randomnobody on May 10, 2020 22:55:52 GMT
While not much of a cutter, I'm all for safety. Two mekugi seem like a good idea for me. I don't own any antique katana. Only modern, production. One one side of the spectrum, I bought three bare katana blades made by Windlass. One was all about the owner's customization, and so came with no mekugi-ana. The other two only had one mekugi-ana. On the other side of the spectrum, I have two Last Legend katana, and they both have three mekugi. Cheness katana go with two mekugi, one of wood, the other of brass. Wow, some throwbacks here. I forgot Windlass once offered katana blades, and I forgot Last Legend used three mekugi.
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Post by tancred on May 10, 2020 23:13:26 GMT
Wow, some throwbacks here. I forgot Windlass once offered katana blades, and I forgot Last Legend used three mekugi. Yes, I love all of those blades. Unique in their own way. Aside from the three mekugi, the Last Legend models I own went for a deep sori. It makes them handle differently from most other katana I've handled, but really like the look. I bought the three Windlass blades at different times, and it shows how they were experimenting with things. Wish they'd show some more experimenting and innovation like they used to. In any case, I bought the first one a long time ago. It was a damascus version, and looks much like any of their damascus knives do today. Very dark and cool looking. This one came with one mekugi-ana, and I did have it mounted. The second one wasn't folded, but it it has a subtle and real hamon line (I think its real anyway). Windlass actually went for a differentially hardened blade! One mekugi-ana rather roughly done. It is not mounted. I need to get a habaki fit to it, and have some one probably re-do the mekugi-ana and mount it. Last one I bought was another damascus one. I'd call it more of a folded version, as its much more subtle than the first one. No mekugi-ana, and its not mounted. Have a habaki that fits reasonably well, but it will need to get mounted some day. First one was quite expensive. Last two were I think $60 and $80, respectively. Sorry for the slight derailment. I will say that Cheness gets some flak sometimes. I really do like their two mekugi, one being brass approach though.
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Post by randomnobody on May 11, 2020 0:05:38 GMT
Last Legend was awesome when I first found it in the late 90s/early 00s. I loved their designs and that sori...mmm... Being like, 15, they were out of my league hardcore. Pity they were gone by the time I stated making money.
I remembered, after my last post, that some of the katana blades offered my MRL/windlass were damascus and some not. Don't think I remember anything about differential hardening, but maybe?
Anyway, I'm not not actually sure what my katana have. I know the antique wakizashi both are single mekugi, one being pretty old but holding up fine. I think my Hanwei practical has one, but it's also glued together. My DF Musha was redone by its previous owner but I think is only one now. Pretty sure the rest are two, and two of those are also glued, so there's that.
Honestly, one mekugi was fine for most of history but today's market is a little different. May as well go with the infamous "full-tang" style of slabs riveted onto the nakago and call it an improvement for safety.
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Post by RufusScorpius on May 11, 2020 1:26:59 GMT
Epoxy and two steel mekugi rivets. No danger of the handle flying off...
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on May 11, 2020 10:11:10 GMT
Hi, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Only if you look at the work of Yoshindo Yoshihara you can clearly see that he has forged a katana with 1 mekugi-ana. www.jaclab.org/masters/yoshindo-yoshihara-swordsmith/I would not want to take off his work as wall hangers or dare to say that I know more about swords like this famous blacksmith. I personally think that with a total custom made handle a well forged blade is well secured with 1 mekugi, it must be well placed about 2/3 from the nakago jiri. In that case, the mounting quality of the entire handle must be high. The mekugi must also be drilled at the correct angle for optimum strength. But of course having 2 well done mekugi is also fine. I personally think two mekugi poorly shaped and fixed are not as good as a single mekugi properly done one. The reason that you see several holes with some swords is that swords were often shortened or suriage and the new handle had to be able to understand the forces again. This was very often the case with older tachi. As said, safety is very important and inspecting the mekugi should actually become a standard ritual when using a sword functionally. My experience with old Japanese swords is that they can only come out one way and are therefore somewhat conical. I even dare to say that if you have to remove the mekugi with excessive force, it is actually that the quality of the sword is low because it is actually not well matched. A good mekugi is also always made of hard bamboo. After many disassemblies I can tell that the removal of the tsuka with a low end production sword can be difficult because the handle is already on the swordtang and then the holes are drilled in. This ensures that burrs get inside the wood of the handle and are unremovable. Straight mekugi without a conical shape is also used and the result is a tsuka that is sometimes barely removable. Also, as soon as the tsuba loosens a bit, this could be an indication that there is some slack, this could also be due to the mekugi. I see it like this. Better 1 good mekugi (custom/bamboo/shape/etc) than 2 bad ones Better 2 good than 1 good. with same analogy Better 2 bad mekugi instead of 1 Also, I must say Hanwei gets this aspect very well, the angle and shaped of the mekugi are well done, removing the tsuka is similar to most genuine Japanese swords. Anwyay safety is of great importance to everyone while practicing Japanese swordsmanship, take care!
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Post by treeslicer on May 11, 2020 17:21:40 GMT
Hi, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Only if you look at the work of Yoshindo Yoshihara you can clearly see that he has forged a katana with 1 mekugi-ana. www.jaclab.org/masters/yoshindo-yoshihara-swordsmith/I would not want to take off his work as wall hangers or dare to say that I know more about swords like this famous blacksmith. I personally think that with a total custom made handle a well forged blade is well secured with 1 mekugi, it must be well placed about 2/3 from the nakago jiri. In that case, the mounting quality of the entire handle must be high. The mekugi must also be drilled at the correct angle for optimum strength. But of course having 2 well done mekugi is also fine. I personally think two mekugi poorly shaped and fixed are not as good as a single mekugi properly done one. The reason that you see several holes with some swords is that swords were often shortened or suriage and the new handle had to be able to understand the forces again. This was very often the case with older tachi. As said, safety is very important and inspecting the mekugi should actually become a standard ritual when using a sword functionally. My experience with old Japanese swords is that they can only come out one way and are therefore somewhat conical. I even dare to say that if you have to remove the mekugi with excessive force, it is actually that the quality of the sword is low because it is actually not well matched. A good mekugi is also always made of hard bamboo. After many disassemblies I can tell that the removal of the tsuka with a low end production sword can be difficult because the handle is already on the swordtang and then the holes are drilled in. This ensures that burrs get inside the wood of the handle and are unremovable. Straight mekugi without a conical shape is also used and the result is a tsuka that is sometimes barely removable. Also, as soon as the tsuba loosens a bit, this could be an indication that there is some slack, this could also be due to the mekugi. I see it like this. Better 1 good mekugi (custom/bamboo/shape/etc) than 2 bad ones Better 2 good than 1 good. with same analogy Better 2 bad mekugi instead of 1 Also, I must say Hanwei gets this aspect very well, the angle and shaped of the mekugi are well done, removing the tsuka is similar to most genuine Japanese swords. Anwyay safety is of great importance to everyone while practicing Japanese swordsmanship, take care!
Little bit of bias in the framing of your survey poll? Didn't work, though. did it?
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Klaver
Manufacturer/Vendor
“Do not seek for the truth, only stop having an opinion
Posts: 74
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Post by Klaver on May 11, 2020 17:47:19 GMT
food for the mind ;)
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Post by paulmuaddib on May 11, 2020 19:52:32 GMT
Ok, I’m bowing to the greater knowledge and experience of the members on this forum. After all that’s why I came here in the first place and why I’ve stayed. Two mekugi. Of course as said above quality of the mekugi, and all parts of any sword, are important. I have seen the delrin pins mentioned above and just in the last week or so saw a katana with one bamboo mekugi and one brass pin. Think it was over on eBay. I don’t cut much and never anything harder than water bottles but I am going to start inspecting my mekugi and sword overall more closely before cutting anything In the future. Thanks to all for that reminder.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 13:49:52 GMT
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