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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 10, 2020 7:06:49 GMT
So another member on here (but mostly Facebook) and I decoded some markings, but I am totally lost on 2 of 4 on the sabre. A.T.A. 6. 10? C.A.F.3.H.? I don't have any idea what these could mean. Sabre made in 1860, service sharpened with a lot of "patina" in the edge grind. Not modern at all, pitting in the edge. The whole cake. But bakery column seems like a terribly boring assignment to have a sharp sabre with nicks right where the German sabre school taught to cut/parry would be. Of course I don't discount an idea that they are from play. I hope these images are visible.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 10, 2020 7:39:13 GMT
From D.V. Martin on Facebook
"A.T.A. 6. is Army Telegraf Abteilung 6... That style of "T" is for Telegrafen units"
And
"C.A.F. 3. H. is (Unknown) Artillery of Foot, 3 Howitzer Battery.. The "C" normally indicates Garde du Corps, but this KS 52 predated the marking reform after the war of 1870...so there is really no way to tell easily what it stood for"
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Post by MOK on Apr 10, 2020 8:05:26 GMT
All I can say is, wow that sword got passed around a lot! Really cool to see all the stamped out stamps of its previous career. I'd assume the nicks on the blade probably predate its time in the Bakery Column...
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Post by mrbadexample on Apr 10, 2020 12:44:03 GMT
Heh. I worked as a baker for a while. Met some odd, belligerent folks in that line of work. I can imagine that it was put to some legit use while with the bakers. Maybe not sanctioned use...
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 10, 2020 16:28:20 GMT
So far here's my theory on the swords history of use. 1st. In 1865 it was issued out to the Garde Foot Artillery of the Gardes Corps and carried in the FPW. 2nd And 3rd. In 1871 it was issued to the 4th company Reserve 9th Hussars, and at some point before or after this was sent to the telegraph unit. 4th. In the lead up to WW1 Army Corps II seems to have acquired a previously unowned bakery column, to whom this sabre was issued out. But, let's poke some holes now: Why did the sabre retain the grind marks and semi sharp blade after it's initial FPW service? I can't find any way to track down this telegraph unit, and WW1 seems awfully late to send a sabre that would then be out of service for about 2 models to war. If that is a plausible history it was attached to the same Corps my artillery sabre supplied early in the war (ww1). Perhaps that is when it was sharpened? From the Wikipedia "On mobilisation, II Corps was assigned to the 1st Army, which was on the right wing of the forces for the Schlieffen Plan offensive in August 1914 on the Western Front. It saw action in the invasion of Belgium (Battle of Mons), the First Battle of the Marne, and the Race to the Sea (culminating in the First Battle of Ypres as part of the 6th Army). Thereafter, the Corps was transferred to the Eastern Front, joining the 9th Army" The eastern front would not surprise me for sabre combat with a supply train being attacked. Before the stalemate of trench warfare after the 1st Marne it could also be plausible that some French cavalry or Spahis took a go at the supply of the Prussian infantry. What do you guys think. Uhlan, any thoughts? You're better with the organisation of the Prussian military than I am.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Apr 10, 2020 18:54:00 GMT
You know... I thought of a way to really highlight what those stamps are. To a pencil and tissue rubbing, it may make the numbers and letters really *pop*
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Post by Pino on Apr 11, 2020 3:13:05 GMT
Are there any markings on the scabbard?
Otherwise it seems more likely the sword started its career with the Reserve Hussar unit. Most if not all KS52 I saw had markings on that specific outer area rather than nearer to the ricasso.
If it went then to the Guard Foot Artillery unit before the Telegraph unit or vice-versa is anybody's guess but that it ended as a side weapon to a less glorious supply unit (here a field bakery unit) and sharpened before or during WW1 was the fate of many surplus/archaic weapons.
For example one of my KS52/79 started with the prestigious Lieb-Garde Hussars and after being transferred a couple of times ended up in a (Guard) Transport Pool section...poor thing.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 11, 2020 4:25:09 GMT
Are there any markings on the scabbard? Otherwise it seems more likely the sword started its career with the Reserve Hussar unit. Most if not all KS52 I saw had markings on that specific outer area rather than nearer to the ricasso. If it went then to the Guard Foot Artillery unit before the Telegraph unit or vice-versa is anybody's guess but that it ended as a side weapon to a less glorious supply unit (here a field bakery unit) and sharpened before or during WW1 was the fate of many surplus/archaic weapons. For example one of my KS52/79 started with the prestigious Lieb-Garde Hussars and after being transferred a couple of times ended up in a (Guard) Transport Pool section...poor thing. there are, once I'm at home I'll upload pics but they are both train battalions iirc. I thought so as well, it seems according to the Wikipedia list it was formed 1815, but I can't find a good history of it before 1871 after the FPW and formation of the 15th Army Corps. The sabre was made in 1860, would it have sat in storage during the 11 years and 3 wars since then? No doubt though that it ended it's life in the reserve bakery supply column lol. I was trying to work from an order of earliest dated first, going from the ricasso.
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Post by Pino on Apr 11, 2020 13:26:01 GMT
Nope, you are right, I was thinking Landhwer Husar regt, the Reserve came after. Still strange it would be issued first to a Telegraph or Foot artillery unit but then again Howitzer sections would have mounted elements and the German Army was far from being a super tightly regulated organisation.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 11, 2020 14:40:11 GMT
Nope, you are right, I was thinking Landhwer Husar regt, the Reserve came after. Still strange it would be issued first to a Telegraph or Foot artillery unit but then again Howitzer sections would have mounted elements and the German Army was far from being a super tightly regulated organisation. I wish it was Landwher hussars But, I am thinking if it was first send to Garde Corps howitzer for support of the infantry it would have likely seen some battle going over that corp and units battle history. However, the blade bevel does not support this early action theory unless they only dulled the edge and didn't grind it down all the way. I'll have to look again to see any signs of a less wide edge angle.
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Post by Polyester on May 4, 2020 14:50:08 GMT
The interpretation of German stamps is not easy for non-German collectors without knowledge of German military history. The order of the letters does not always result in logic. It is always worth noting the spelling and size of the characters. If you want to get it out exactly, then it does not fail to ask the questions to a German forum. PS: Jordan Williams, You have been registered in the www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de since October 2017.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 4, 2020 16:32:41 GMT
The interpretation of German stamps is not easy for non-German collectors without knowledge of German military history. The order of the letters does not always result in logic. It is always worth noting the spelling and size of the characters. If you want to get it out exactly, then it does not fail to ask the questions to a German forum. PS: Jordan Williams, You have been registered in the www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de since October 2017. I can't figure out my password
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Post by Polyester on May 4, 2020 16:57:15 GMT
I can't figure out my password I wrote you a private message.
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