Ouroboros
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Imperial, Mysterious In Amorous Array
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Post by Ouroboros on Apr 3, 2020 12:43:57 GMT
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 3, 2020 13:49:53 GMT
Man, you are playing with your own and others health and life if you try to do cutting with such stuff... there are enough videos on YT of such steel crap failure and injury! "Spring steel" says nothing about heat treat, hardness and structural integrity; and with that price tag i doubt there was any testing or QC at all... At $50-60 I can guarantee there was little to no QC involved. When it comes to manufacturing, materials are actually next to nothing in the cost. The expense comes from the cost of tools (drill bits, milling cutters, etc all cost money and wear out fast) and the cost of people. QC programs require people to manage them and processes that require testing and the inevitable scrap. For a sword in the $1,000+ range this is about right, where the materials cost about $15 or so, the manufacturing process about $100 (forging, heat treating, etc per unit), and the rest is spent on the time for human QC related functions (fit, finish, sorting, polishing, error corrections, rework, etc), plus a bit for profit. So on a $1,000 sword, figure the manufacturer production total cost is about $700 all-in with a $300 retail mark-up. This is reasonable for a sword that is not absolutely top of the line, but will be reliable, durable, and functional. A $50 sword will use the same $ raw materials, so figure $15, they can cut cost by not changing out tools until they actually break (which is the first flaw in QC process) and they can use less skilled labor to save even more, and then just do a rework on really bad items instead of scrapping them. To sell it for $50 and still make a normal profit margin, the cost of production CANNOT be more than $35 or so. That means the entire labor and tooling cost of producing that item will have to be about $20. This leaves NO room at all for anything other than a quick cut on a CNC machine from stock steel blanks, a hit with a polishing grinder, and off it goes to the customer. Forget about heat treating- that alone will cost more than the entire retail price of the blade. Do the math. Numbers don't lie. The exception to this, I would say, is with an item like a Cold Steel machete, where the rough nature of the product (cut out blank, rough automated finish, sprayed on black coating, injected plastic handle) saves some money and the heat treat process has been worked out well enough to deliver pretty consistent results. So you can get sometimes get something durable and cheap, or pretty and cheap. Not both.
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Post by Dandelion on Apr 3, 2020 14:17:16 GMT
Man, you are playing with your own and others health and life if you try to do cutting with such stuff... there are enough videos on YT of such steel crap failure and injury! "Spring steel" says nothing about heat treat, hardness and structural integrity; and with that price tag i doubt there was any testing or QC at all... At $50-60 I can guarantee there was little to no QC involved. When it comes to manufacturing, materials are actually next to nothing in the cost. The expense comes from the cost of tools (drill bits, milling cutters, etc all cost money and wear out fast) and the cost of people. QC programs require people to manage them and processes that require testing and the inevitable scrap. For a sword in the $1,000+ range this is about right, where the materials cost about $15 or so, the manufacturing process about $100 (forging, heat treating, etc per unit), and the rest is spent on the time for human QC related functions (fit, finish, sorting, polishing, error corrections, rework, etc), plus a bit for profit. So on a $1,000 sword, figure the manufacturer production total cost is about $700 all-in with a $300 retail mark-up. This is reasonable for a sword that is not absolutely top of the line, but will be reliable, durable, and functional. A $50 sword will use the same $ raw materials, so figure $15, they can cut cost by not changing out tools until they actually break (which is the first flaw in QC process) and they can use less skilled labor to save even more, and then just do a rework on really bad items instead of scrapping them. To sell it for $50 and still make a normal profit margin, the cost of production CANNOT be more than $35 or so. That means the entire labor and tooling cost of producing that item will have to be about $20. This leaves NO room at all for anything other than a quick cut on a CNC machine from stock steel blanks, a hit with a polishing grinder, and off it goes to the customer. Forget about heat treating- that alone will cost more than the entire retail price of the blade. Do the math. Numbers don't lie. Exactly. I doubt though that the guy will get it better with your explanation. This here is a quite cheap fabtasy leafblade from China; sometimes as risky as those BudK things when you jump in the dark ebay waters. BUT: * it IS heat treated (bends and turns back to straight) * it IS quite hardened (cuts well, holds it edge) * this was possible because because it was 200 USD Attachments:
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 3, 2020 14:41:11 GMT
Nope, a sword is not a machete. You are comparing two completely different products. A machete is made from a single piece of sheet metal, usually stamped, and has an injection molded plastic handle held on by two or three rivets. It is possible to manufacture a machete for under a dollar for materials and right at 90 seconds of production time. A Cold Steel machete has some extras like the coating, but still they can make them for $10.
Also don't forget there is what's called "economy of scale". In other words, the more you make of something, the cheaper each unit will cost. Machetes are a high demand item and are currently used all over the world for work purposes. Manufacturers make thousands of them every week, possibly every day, to feed the need for millions of units a year. Swords are a niche product, manufacturers probably make one or two hundred a month.
I could go on about this, but that would take too long. Bottom line: you get what you pay for.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 3, 2020 14:47:45 GMT
At $50-60 I can guarantee there was little to no QC involved. ... Do the math. Numbers don't lie. Exactly. I doubt though that the guy will get it better with your explanation. This here is a quite cheap fabtasy leafblade from China; sometimes as risky as those BudK things when you jump in the dark ebay waters. BUT: * it IS heat treated (bends and turns back to straight) * it IS quite hardened (cuts well, holds it edge) * this was possible because because it was 200 USD For $200 you can get a really good piece of steel. In fact, I would say that most high end swords use the same steel, but have better materials for the fit and finish parts- thus the higher price due to labor cost and lower production numbers. Time is a huge factor in the price of something- If I hammer out a really excellent steel blade, but don't polish it or attempt to fit it, it would probably cost you $100-150 for that piece alone. What happens after that is huge amounts of time to polish and fit- so it's X hours times $/hour labor. If it takes 40 hours to do a high quality fit and finish work, then that is 40 x $75/hr = $3,000. See where the cost is? And yes, $75/hr is reasonable, perhaps even cheap, because you have to pay a master craftsman his wages, plus give him materials to work with and keep the lights on at the shop. For me to sell you that same blade in a finished product for $200, then I have about 1 hour to spend on polishing and fitting, and even then I break even. So that is why these cheaper swords are cheaper, and I think why people are expecting way too much on the finish work at the lower price ranges. At $200 the steel is good, the rest of it not so much. But you can always upgrade the fittings as your time and money increase.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 3, 2020 17:41:20 GMT
I started to post that. Even had it up on my screen.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 4, 2020 5:11:10 GMT
I started to post that. Even had it up on my screen. in all fairness this is an old video. The internet has been around for a lot longer now, and what that means for the products is significant. Without a doubt what you can expect to get for your money has improved with knives and swords overall. 15$ buys one hell of a knife at home depot. (milwaukee). that is not the way it used to be. and I have a 15$ "mall sword" that I've had for like 5 years, , sure I'm still sure it would break early in destructive testing, but it is really sharp still today, and anything that people "test cut" it cuts just fine. Also, I will know when the metal starts to get weak. The advantage of a lot of cheap mall swords is the stock is heat treated, so the people making the blade don't do that. They just mill it out. Sure it could be better with a good smith, but on the other hand it doubles as idiot-proof.
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howler
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Post by howler on Apr 4, 2020 6:21:02 GMT
Aranyik used to offer various sword like objects at pretty crazy prices. Standard (18" blade at 1 3/4 lbs.) and extended (20" blade at near 2.lbs.) Latin machete style (but they were no light, thin, crap steel machete) at $25 and $30 respectively. They were 3/16 thick convex ground slabs of diff. tempered 5160 from Thailand that Miles the owner would put the edge and hardwood scales on himself in Hawaii. He also made wider, heavier cane style brutes with 15-17" two hand blades for around $35. No sheaths offered kept the price down.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 4, 2020 13:59:34 GMT
I started to post that. Even had it up on my screen. in all fairness this is an old video. The internet has been around for a lot longer now, and what that means for the products is significant. Without a doubt what you can expect to get for your money has improved with knives and swords overall. 15$ buys one hell of a knife at home depot. (milwaukee). that is not the way it used to be. and I have a 15$ "mall sword" that I've had for like 5 years, , sure I'm still sure it would break early in destructive testing, but it is really sharp still today, and anything that people "test cut" it cuts just fine. Also, I will know when the metal starts to get weak. The advantage of a lot of cheap mall swords is the stock is heat treated, so the people making the blade don't do that. They just mill it out. Sure it could be better with a good smith, but on the other hand it doubles as idiot-proof. There is no reason to defend your actions. It’s your hobby, enjoy. Just be safe.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 4, 2020 14:28:26 GMT
in all fairness this is an old video. The internet has been around for a lot longer now, and what that means for the products is significant. Without a doubt what you can expect to get for your money has improved with knives and swords overall. 15$ buys one hell of a knife at home depot. (milwaukee). that is not the way it used to be. and I have a 15$ "mall sword" that I've had for like 5 years, , sure I'm still sure it would break early in destructive testing, but it is really sharp still today, and anything that people "test cut" it cuts just fine. Also, I will know when the metal starts to get weak. The advantage of a lot of cheap mall swords is the stock is heat treated, so the people making the blade don't do that. They just mill it out. Sure it could be better with a good smith, but on the other hand it doubles as idiot-proof. There is no reason to defend your actions. It’s your hobby, enjoy. Just be safe. I agree. We are just having a discussion about it. At the end of the day it's your hobby and your choice.
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Post by markus313 on Apr 4, 2020 16:42:52 GMT
I have beaten the crap out of stainless steel mall ninja swords. Including throwing at stumps and felling small trees. Yes, things can go wrong. But those I had didn’t break – they bent and got bent back dozens and dozens of times. Fittings got loose, yes, flew off, whatnot. But those overmold handles where tough as hell. Used a nail for a mekugi, duct tape, etc. Not recommending anything, just saying.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 4, 2020 21:14:50 GMT
They're often 420J2, which is tough. No surprise to see one survive a lot of abuse.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 4, 2020 22:41:47 GMT
They're often 420J2, which is tough. No surprise to see one survive a lot of abuse. my experience is that I thought they would be a lot worse than they were. I ordered a cheap katana, but then a scratch and dent mix from budk some 5 years ago. The katana was good full tang (i took off the handle back then), and worked pretty well. (I bent it hitting my car, bent it back and stuck to plastic bottles). for a long time i didn't play much with the goofy "mall-swords" that I was unhappy i got, but later, I started to see them as any kind of large blade, and I went about cutting the vegetables and sharpening them, until eventually I had to admit that the situation was,, they're pretty good. I mean, not that good on the scale of blades,but pretty good in that they do fall onto the scale of blades. They sharpen pretty easy, still hold some form of an edge, you basically just hold the tang, so they won't fly out of a handle, and they cost like 15$ - 25$. If what you want to do is cut vegetables with a massive blade, they're great. yes, as a blade enthusiast I think they are lower quality, but as a bladed toy, I think they are still pretty fun.
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Post by buliwyf on Apr 5, 2020 13:37:29 GMT
All I gotta say is please be safe! with the kind of SLO's you are buying, a lot of concern to look out for is although stainless is hard it is brittle and in a longer blade will shatter. Look out for rat tail tangs as they are just welded on and come apart and break rather easily. I see others have gone into the other concerns like heat treating and steel types so I'll leave that alone. I have a few (SLO's) I bought over the years only because I liked the look of them but I will never cut with them. Take your time, save a bit of cash and purchase a good full tang, decent steel sword and you will immediately notice the difference between a sword and an SLO (sword like object). If you like leaf blades here's one I had to save up for my Neil Burridge Ewart Park bronze sword.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 5, 2020 19:16:48 GMT
All I gotta say is please be safe! with the kind of SLO's you are buying, a lot of concern to look out for is although stainless is hard it is brittle and in a longer blade will shatter. Look out for rat tail tangs as they are just welded on and come apart and break rather easily. I see others have gone into the other concerns like heat treating and steel types so I'll leave that alone. I have a few (SLO's) I bought over the years only because I liked the look of them but I will never cut with them. Take your time, save a bit of cash and purchase a good full tang, decent steel sword and you will immediately notice the difference between a sword and an SLO (sword like object). If you like leaf blades here's one I had to save up for my Neil Burridge Ewart Park bronze sword. well anyway the mall-swords I'm buying are all short, like under 30 inches total length, they are closer to a messer. I have broken some tips, but I do be careful ,and try to be aware of the material I am holding. I do agree that you should always encourage caution at every opportunity. My example is ocean sports like surfing. With ocean sports, everyone will be supportive if you tell people to be careful no matter who they are or what they know. It is very easy to make a mistake and once you do it happens so fast you can't do anything about it, and in the ocean, if you get into trouble, you can't get help in time. Swords are the same, and if you make a mistake, it's going to be too late, and you can be hurt or hurt someone else faster than it takes to understand what happened. that said, I promise, I am careful.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 5, 2020 19:20:10 GMT
There is no reason to defend your actions. It’s your hobby, enjoy. Just be safe. I agree. We are just having a discussion about it. At the end of the day it's your hobby and your choice. me too. I am not taking any offense or offering any offense. I understand the difficulty of proper translation, so I won't be offended ever. and again, I also support all safety concerns because you can never be too careful, and you can never be faulted for worrying about others safety. Swords get a lot of attention because of how dangerous they are, even if there is no intent to use them as a weapon. I am always happy to here people worry about my safety, and you too please be safe to demonstrate that we can have the hobby and others can too.
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