|
Post by tsmspace on Apr 2, 2020 10:19:46 GMT
I ordered this sword just now. It was under 40$ after shipping from the BudK. www.budk.com/Crimson-Fighting-Bull-Sword-And-Sheath-Spring-Stee-46096How would more experienced collectors feel about the experience of having this blade, and how it might relate to reproductions of historical leaf blades?? Will I be able to gain a better understanding of historical leaf blades by owning this ?? (similar shape should still share many properties, ) Leaf blades were often bronze. I have been enjoying my budget throwing knives, and budget "mall ninja" swords, because they are still reasonable blades in classic shapes, and I have been cutting old clothes, cardboard, plastic bottles, cardboard tubes, etc. with my "goofy bowie knives/ short swords"., I certainly feel I am learning about different blade shapes. (I am presently struggling to see where a tanto is best used and how). This sword is steel, and also the handle looks about 11 or so inches, plenty of room for two hands, but it doesn't firmly support my hand at the top and bottom which many grips do. (firmly supporting the top and bottom of the hand should improve one handed control for cutting angles is what I am assuming I will lose). I will try using it to slice like a knife and swing like a sword, so will keep the entire blade sharp.
|
|
|
Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 2, 2020 11:05:53 GMT
I already warned you about Budk in your other thread. I would consider this sword a safety hazard.
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 2, 2020 11:11:49 GMT
No, I don't think you can make any useful comparison between a historic leaf blade and the Crimson from BudK. First of all, as you pointed out, historic blades were made of bronze and the Crimson is made of steel. So right away you are comparing two totally different metals. The hardness and density differences will change the point of balance and overall weight, for starters. Also, the handle on the Crimson is much longer than any historic leaf blade.
In my personal opinion, you should enjoy the Crimson to the fullest extent possible and have as much fun with it as you can. But don't think that it is an analog to anything historic. You won't learn anything useful about actual historic leaf blades from the Crimson.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 2, 2020 11:22:19 GMT
It's sold as a display sword so I'd expect a wallhanger, not heat treated, 1045 "spring steel", not really safe for any use except being displayed. I've never seen an antique leaf blade with a two handed grip so you can't even feel exactly how a real leafblade handled. I have a sweet tooth for tacticool cheapos but I'd buy a Cold Steel machete instead, which is tough and safe.
|
|
|
Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 2, 2020 11:42:59 GMT
If you want an inexpensive leaf blade, try Devil's Edge on KoA instead. There is a munitions grade Celtic sword listed for $50 right now.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 2, 2020 13:02:34 GMT
For $35.98 and only faux ray skin? Oopps, I didn’t read far enough the menuki is gold. WOW! The metal maybe spring steel alright but they neglect to give the HRC. Has it been sharpened? You could have done better for only a few dollars more. Keep us posted. Haha
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Apr 2, 2020 18:42:18 GMT
For $35.98 and only faux ray skin? Oopps, I didn’t read far enough the menuki is gold. WOW! The metal maybe spring steel alright but they neglect to give the HRC. Has it been sharpened? You could have done better for only a few dollars more. Keep us posted. Haha I understand where you are coming from, because those are real considerations. However, i have some other "cheap mall swords", and although I wont try to say they are better in any way to more premium swords, they ARE cutting everything i was cutting,, like plastic bottles, cardboard tubes, ,,, that's about all I take out for a swing but anyway. My point is that although every argument you can make for a better sword is valid, they ARE blades that DO cut, and without a doubt the shapes are functioning like the shapes do. (straight sword vs. large bowie type, vs. kopis looking edge with lots of decoration etc.). anyway, a lot of those cheapos ring in around 20$ if you pay premium prices on normal days, which is why I'm interested to buy a handful of blade shapes. I mean for 200$ you can pretty much cover most basic blade shapes at one-hand size, and they are all made out of basically the same stainless steel, so you can get really familiar with where the shape of the blade is causing the difference instead of the material. (and therefore the stable bevel angle,,, they are all basically identical for the "sharpening angle". )
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Apr 2, 2020 18:51:12 GMT
No, I don't think you can make any useful comparison between a historic leaf blade and the Crimson from BudK. First of all, as you pointed out, historic blades were made of bronze and the Crimson is made of steel. So right away you are comparing two totally different metals. The hardness and density differences will change the point of balance and overall weight, for starters. Also, the handle on the Crimson is much longer than any historic leaf blade. In my personal opinion, you should enjoy the Crimson to the fullest extent possible and have as much fun with it as you can. But don't think that it is an analog to anything historic. You won't learn anything useful about actual historic leaf blades from the Crimson. well as a messer, the shape should be interesting, because I can sharpen it, and then cut paper and cardboard and cloth. I have this other, short-sword that looks like some shape you would see an elf with, , second from the bottom in the image, it's very interesting to sit and cut paper and fabric with. the black zombie kopis above it is definately a chopper, but is weak for knife-cutting throughout the middle of the blade, and works well on either side of the swell near the tip. So, I am wondering how the leaf blade works as a messer, will it cut well either side of the swell? will it be more like the longer swell of the 2nd from the bottom and cut very well along most of the edge?? ,,, the black zombie kopis also needs special care when chopping and swing-slicing, unlike the katana, which is a one trick super-pony. and if anyone has any thoughts,,,, WHY doesn't the front of the tanto tip (the flat part of the tip) work better like a scraper than it does?? I can't seem to keep a cut running on the small edge at the tip, I always desire to run longer cuts (like through fabric) on the main edge starting from the base and sliding up. also the tip only penetrates well when VERY sharp....
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Apr 2, 2020 18:56:57 GMT
If you want an inexpensive leaf blade, try Devil's Edge on KoA instead. There is a munitions grade Celtic sword listed for $50 right now. it's too late.. I did check the listing, but I've already purchased. If I do look at the devils edge sword, (it's not like I'm going anywhere at least until april 30th), I will actually be happy to have both to compare them to eachother.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 2, 2020 19:45:06 GMT
I understand where you are coming from, because those are real considerations. However, i have some other "cheap mall swords", and although I wont try to say they are better in any way to more premium swords, they ARE cutting everything i was cutting,, like plastic bottles, cardboard tubes, ,,, that's about all I take out for a swing but anyway. My point is that although every argument you can make for a better sword is valid, they ARE blades that DO cut, and without a doubt the shapes are functioning like the shapes do. (straight sword vs. large bowie type, vs. kopis looking edge with lots of decoration etc.). anyway, a lot of those cheapos ring in around 20$ if you pay premium prices on normal days, which is why I'm interested to buy a handful of blade shapes. I mean for 200$ you can pretty much cover most basic blade shapes at one-hand size, and they are all made out of basically the same stainless steel, so you can get really familiar with where the shape of the blade is causing the difference instead of the material. (and therefore the stable bevel angle,,, they are all basically identical for the "sharpening angle". ) In all seriousness it’s your money, your hobby. If that is what makes you happy go for it. In the end that’s all that counts, and don’t listen to me or the others. I do hope that it lives up to your expectations. If you let others run your life you will never be happy. Enjoy, but I am curious so if you will, keep us posted.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Apr 2, 2020 23:12:53 GMT
Seems like you are more concerned about learning how different swords perform based on blade shape, rather than having a sturdy weapon that can be used as swords were intended to be used (in combat, cutting through flesh and bone, hitting wood and metal, etc.) without breaking or malfunctioning. If so, go for it! It's a hobby, do what you find interesting and fun. Just be aware of safety risks, and be careful when using a cheap small sword, as it might break/malfunction and hurt someone.
|
|
|
Post by SandStormZA on Apr 3, 2020 6:23:03 GMT
Just from looking at the pictures, I'll echo what others have said about the handle being too long. Also, the guard on the BudK sword has those horns that curl towards the user's hand, so that's going to be uncomfortable when you're swinging it. Also, lead blades from history were typically one-handed and I believe they were meant to be used with a shield. So this one may not replicate that experience Still, if you like these swords, then swing away and leave a review
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 3, 2020 6:58:02 GMT
You won't get any useful data with swords at this level of cheapness due to crappy edge and blade geometry, poor dynamics, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 3, 2020 7:11:52 GMT
My point is that although every argument you can make for a better sword is valid, they ARE blades that DO cut, and without a doubt the shapes are functioning like the shapes do. (straight sword vs. large bowie type, vs. kopis looking edge with lots of decoration etc.). This misses out on quite a bit of the historical function of the blade shapes. For example, a common characteristic of leaf-blades is that the wide portion is thin. On bronze blades, the increased width is to maintain reasonable strength while having a thin blade. Meanwhile, the base of the blade is kept thicker for stiffness. If the base of the blade is twice as thick and half as wide, it will be 4 times as stiff. On iron/steel blades, the wide part can be wide simply because it's forged thinner, spreading it wider. Playing with a blade of uniform thickness with a leaf profile doesn't replicate this variation in thickness. (Still, it would be better than many leaf-blade replicas which get thicker at the wide part, unlike the real thing.)
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Apr 3, 2020 7:22:41 GMT
This misses out on quite a bit of the historical function of the blade shapes. For example, a common characteristic of leaf-blades is that the wide portion is thin. On bronze blades, the increased width is to maintain reasonable strength while having a thin blade. Meanwhile, the base of the blade is kept thicker for stiffness. If the base of the blade is twice as thick and half as wide, it will be 4 times as stiff. On iron/steel blades, the wide part can be wide simply because it's forged thinner, spreading it wider. Playing with a blade of uniform thickness with a leaf profile doesn't replicate this variation in thickness. (Still, it would be better than many leaf-blade replicas which get thicker at the wide part, unlike the real thing.) right so therefore the point of the leafblade is to have a blade that long that still cuts. (like a demon) so talking theory, the reason why a flat blade can outperform at stabbing over a (durable) spike, is as the spike penetrates and increases in diameter, it stretches the material or forces it to tear in order to allow for further penetration,,, while the flat shape with blades on both sides will cut the material, meaning that it doesn't have to stretch as much to allow for further penetration. The edges separate the material very gradually, meaning that they work at high efficiency, and the separation means that the normal tension holding the two sides of the entrance together is completely eliminated, so the only resistance is friction along the surface (significantly reduced now that the material is not increasing in pressure as penetration increases), and how ever much the material needs to be compressed or displaced in order to allow for the thickness of the blade.
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Apr 3, 2020 7:39:04 GMT
Just from looking at the pictures, I'll echo what others have said about the handle being too long. Also, the guard on the BudK sword has those horns that curl towards the user's hand, so that's going to be uncomfortable when you're swinging it. Also, lead blades from history were typically one-handed and I believe they were meant to be used with a shield. So this one may not replicate that experience Still, if you like these swords, then swing away and leave a review I would love to make some sort of review, because it's still very interesting to use them. I mean, I also love using my bowie knife to make little pieces of cardboard and paper. (I don't ever cut things like fruit, too expensive, but there IS an orange tree in my yard,,, it's so small that it makes about 5 oranges a year, but no one eats them because they are bland, so I DID slice a few of them). slicing oranges with even a dull sword is like taking a plasma blade through butter. I sliced an orange with a sheet of basically unsharpened mild steel. Even using that it felt like it was barely there. Slicing fruit is much easier than cutting paper. sadly I am the most terrible video producer that ever lived post smartphone. anyway what I'm looking at is how there are really a handful of repeated blade profiles, matched with varying fancy cutaways and coloration. Basically you could lump them into a handful of "types". (and then I would want to use traditional names, like "kopis style", or "xiphos style" or "messer/bowie style". I don't some of them, and some of them are like, partial (only the top half of said shape, but that particular edge is where it would be on the full edge), and the handle angle changes. Also, then in this case, you would end up basically lumping a whole bunch of real historical swords together under one name, like tulwar saber , jian rapier, ..... the mall-swords really only occupy a certain few categories., like one handed swords. Katana, arming swords, others, they don't seem to be susceptible to such decoration and also don't seem like they would even work if made like the mall swords,,, while somehow other smaller shapes seem to lend themselves to it just fine. (basically anything cold-steel machetes has)
|
|
|
Post by Dandelion on Apr 3, 2020 7:47:57 GMT
Man, you are playing with your own and others health and life if you try to do cutting with such stuff... there are enough videos on YT of such steel crap failure and injury! "Spring steel" says nothing about heat treat, hardness and structural integrity; and with that price tag i doubt there was any testing or QC at all...
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Apr 3, 2020 8:03:41 GMT
Man, you are playing with your own and others health and life if you try to do cutting with such stuff... there are enough videos on YT of such steel crap failure and injury! "Spring steel" says nothing about heat treat, hardness and structural integrity; and with that price tag i doubt there was any testing or QC at all... I don't cut anything when someone is close by. Sometimes the target goes flying, and I worry about my blades. basically I'm the whole person at risk, but I have some level of familiarity with metals and breaking stuff, so I feel about as safe as using any other tool or equipment. I've had my worst injuries from a regular prybar. (ok, and a knife but that's different, nothing broke). I certainly feel safer than if using large power tools when I swing my swords around. It would be acceptable to wear ppe though.
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 3, 2020 11:38:34 GMT
I will also echo what others are saying: if it floats your boat and you are having fun, then go for it! But I still have the position that you will not learn anything about historic blades by comparing them to what you currently own. There are simply too many differences between them.
Also, comparing an original bronze blade with a similar steel blade is useless. Bronze and steel have totally different densities and dynamic properties that volume for volume they react completely different. For example, all things being equal: length, width, thickness, etc, the weight and balance will be totally different between two unlike metals.
Now, if all you want to do is compare blade shape ability and you are using the sub $100 blades, then that may get you some useful results: BUT- probably not. There is a reason bronze swords were shaped the way they were (limitations of materials) and it seldom had anything to do with optimizing cutting ability. Swords of that era were designed to be strong enough not to break and still be able to hurt somebody (with a little decoration thrown in for bling purposes). The design reflected the limits of materials and technologies. Steel sword are another matter, and in this modern era you can throw in carbon fiber swords too if you like. All of them are designed and perform according to the material they were made from. In other words, there is no reason to make a leaf blade out of steel when you can make a better sword design because the material will support it.
I could go on for pages and pages about this. After all, I spent a good part of my adult life as a manufacturing engineer so this topic is right up my professional alley. But it's all good. If you are having fun, then I approve.
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 3, 2020 11:58:53 GMT
Man, you are playing with your own and others health and life if you try to do cutting with such stuff... there are enough videos on YT of such steel crap failure and injury! "Spring steel" says nothing about heat treat, hardness and structural integrity; and with that price tag i doubt there was any testing or QC at all... At $50-60 I can guarantee there was little to no QC involved. When it comes to manufacturing, materials are actually next to nothing in the cost. The expense comes from the cost of tools (drill bits, milling cutters, etc all cost money and wear out fast) and the cost of people. QC programs require people to manage them and processes that require testing and the inevitable scrap. For a sword in the $1,000+ range this is about right, where the materials cost about $15 or so, the manufacturing process about $100 (forging, heat treating, etc per unit), and the rest is spent on the time for human QC related functions (fit, finish, sorting, polishing, error corrections, rework, etc), plus a bit for profit. So on a $1,000 sword, figure the manufacturer production total cost is about $700 all-in with a $300 retail mark-up. This is reasonable for a sword that is not absolutely top of the line, but will be reliable, durable, and functional. A $50 sword will use the same $ raw materials, so figure $15, they can cut cost by not changing out tools until they actually break (which is the first flaw in QC process) and they can use less skilled labor to save even more, and then just do a rework on really bad items instead of scrapping them. To sell it for $50 and still make a normal profit margin, the cost of production CANNOT be more than $35 or so. That means the entire labor and tooling cost of producing that item will have to be about $20. This leaves NO room at all for anything other than a quick cut on a CNC machine from stock steel blanks, a hit with a polishing grinder, and off it goes to the customer. Forget about heat treating- that alone will cost more than the entire retail price of the blade. Do the math. Numbers don't lie.
|
|