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Post by aiki on Mar 10, 2020 1:09:24 GMT
Hello, first time poster and first time buyer of a (hopefully) older sword blade. I need some help Identifying this blade. It was discribed as a wakizashi with a long tang, but no information on the age. My first question is, could this be a cut sword? I've never seen a wakizashi with a long tang before, so that is why I am wondering. My other thought was, is this a chisa katana? It seems short for that though. Any insight would be great, along with some information on the potential age of it. Thanks. P.S. right click the link and open in new tab for pictures. Mike
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 10, 2020 3:08:57 GMT
Man, I dunno. This one's weird. It looks legit enough, but the proportions are super awkward. It looks like a katana got broken at the middle and someone just ground a new kissaki into what was left.
It's such a long tang for such a short blade...
Edit: On closer inspection, I'm convinced that's what it is. Really bizarre, pretty sure this would fall under "highly unconventional" at best. What also bothers me is the rust pattern, especially where the habaki would sit.
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Post by tensho on Mar 10, 2020 3:19:36 GMT
Yeah, looks like a broken katana that was re-shaped. Can you see a hamon on the kissaki? If not, and it runs off the blade it's basically a junk blade. Hopefully you don't have to much into it.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 10, 2020 3:20:28 GMT
Man, I dunno. This one's weird. It looks legit enough, but the proportions are super awkward. It looks like a katana got broken at the middle and someone just ground a new kissaki into what was left. It's such a long tang for such a short blade... Edit: On closer inspection, I'm convinced that's what it is. Really bizarre, pretty sure this would fall under "highly unconventional" at best. What also bothers me is the rust pattern, especially where the habaki would sit. I would concur. It appears to be a katana that for whatever reason, accident or on purpose, was shortened and someone filed/ground down a makeshift point onto it. The tip is not what I think anyone could consider a kissaki.
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Post by aiki on Mar 10, 2020 3:34:49 GMT
Yeah, looks like a broken katana that was re-shaped. Can you see a hamon on the kissaki? If not, and it runs off the blade it's basically a junk blade. Hopefully you don't have to much into it. I can't tell for sure on the kissaki if it has a hamon, it looks oddly shaped and the lines aren't clean. I put a couple hundred down for this one unfortunately.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 10, 2020 3:39:40 GMT
Yeah, looks like a broken katana that was re-shaped. Can you see a hamon on the kissaki? If not, and it runs off the blade it's basically a junk blade. Hopefully you don't have to much into it. I can't tell for sure on the kissaki if it has a hamon, it looks oddly shaped and the lines aren't clean. I put a couple hundred down for this one unfortunately. A couple of hundred what? DOLLARS? You are kidding right? What did you think you were buying that was worth a "couple of hundred"? it looks like someone put a broken and corroded blade in a vice and used a file to make that misshaped point. What it would cost to polish that blade to see if there was a hamon would exceed the "couple of hundred" several times over and you still would have a worthless blade.
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Post by aiki on Mar 10, 2020 3:42:48 GMT
I can't tell for sure on the kissaki if it has a hamon, it looks oddly shaped and the lines aren't clean. I put a couple hundred down for this one unfortunately. A couple of hundred? DOLLARS? You are kidding right? What did you think you were buying that was worth a "couple of hundred"? it looks like someone put the blade in a vice and used a file to make that misshaped point. Even if there is a hamon under what is little is left of the original polish, in my opinion, that blade is worthless. Oddly enough, there were no close up pictures of the tip...
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 10, 2020 3:45:59 GMT
A couple of hundred? DOLLARS? You are kidding right? What did you think you were buying that was worth a "couple of hundred"? it looks like someone put the blade in a vice and used a file to make that misshaped point. Even if there is a hamon under what is little is left of the original polish, in my opinion, that blade is worthless. Oddly enough, there were no close up pictures of the tip... Oddly, you didnt find that odd??? How was the blade represented? If you used paypal you may be able to claim gross misrepresentation and get your $$ back... I doubt it but its worth a try. If the auction has not closed yet, with draw your bid for misrepresentation. Again, I am super curious, what did you think you were buying that was worth a couple hundred? A ruined sword is a ruined sword, mei or not. I am sorry for the abrupt analysis but I hate to see people taken advantage of you have certainly been taken advantage of in my opinion.
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Post by aiki on Mar 10, 2020 3:51:58 GMT
Oddly enough, there were no close up pictures of the tip... Oddly, you didnt find that odd??? How was the blade represented? If you used paypal you may be able to claim gross misrepresentation and get your $$ back... I doubt it but its worth a try. If the auction has not closed yet, with draw your bid for misrepresentation. Again, I am super curious, what did you think you were buying that was worth a couple hundred? A ruined sword is a ruined sword, mei or not. I am sorry for the abrupt analysis but I hate to see people taken advantage of you have certainly been taken advantage of in my opinion. As mentioned it was advertised as a wakizashi, not a cut down ruined blade. I'm not sure about a return but I'll check.
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Post by tensho on Mar 10, 2020 4:03:56 GMT
Was this listed on ebay? I would try and get your money back. Seller knew what they were selling judging by the fresh reshape job. I'm sure the hamon runs off the blade, and sorry to say this blade is worth next to nothing.
Don't believe most the sellers selling these. Japanese swords are not something to just jump into over night. I dont know what you paid, but you could've easily bought a decent wakizashi(out of polish) in full koshirae for $300-500.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 10, 2020 4:32:11 GMT
Oddly, you didnt find that odd??? How was the blade represented? If you used paypal you may be able to claim gross misrepresentation and get your $$ back... I doubt it but its worth a try. If the auction has not closed yet, with draw your bid for misrepresentation. Again, I am super curious, what did you think you were buying that was worth a couple hundred? A ruined sword is a ruined sword, mei or not. I am sorry for the abrupt analysis but I hate to see people taken advantage of you have certainly been taken advantage of in my opinion. As mentioned it was advertised as a wakizashi, not a cut down ruined blade. I'm not sure about a return but I'll check. This is given by Ebay as a reason to return an item; "Doesn't match description or photos". That is NOT a wakizashi....and they purposely omitted the photos that would have made that clear...Good luck and next time KNOW what you are bidding on.
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Post by MOK on Mar 10, 2020 10:18:51 GMT
I would indeed ask for a return and refund ASAP. The sooner you act the more likely it will go through successfully.
It could be an interesting project blade, of course - shorten the tang to match the new proportions and round the point from the back so the hamon doesn't run off the edge, as was sometimes done to broken blades, historically - but seems to have been sold on fraudulent terms and is overpriced for what it is.
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Post by aiki on Mar 10, 2020 14:21:24 GMT
I would indeed ask for a return and refund ASAP. The sooner you act the more likely it will go through successfully. It could be an interesting project blade, of course - shorten the tang to match the new proportions and round the point from the back so the hamon doesn't run off the edge, as was sometimes done to broken blades, historically - but seems to have been sold on fraudulent terms and is overpriced for what it is. I'm working on it, it's sitting with the seller to respond right now. I agree it would be an interesting project blade, I almost wonder if they didn't cut the tang because of the signature on it? But the balance is off due to the extra weight, so you'd almost have to cut off part of the signature or maybe do a shirasaya mount on it?
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 10, 2020 15:10:35 GMT
They wouldn't have cut the tang because the tang wasn't the problem. The blade broke; snapped at less than the halfway point, it looks like. There's no salvaging it at this stage, mei or not.
It's unfortunate, but this sword is what the Japanese call "garbage" now.
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Post by MOK on Mar 10, 2020 18:41:41 GMT
I'm working on it, it's sitting with the seller to respond right now. I agree it would be an interesting project blade, I almost wonder if they didn't cut the tang because of the signature on it? But the balance is off due to the extra weight, so you'd almost have to cut off part of the signature or maybe do a shirasaya mount on it? On old restorations I've seen (only in photographs, sadly) this seems to have been dealt with by removing a part from the middle of the tang, instead of the end, and then welding the bit with the signature back onto the blade. Such a blade may indeed be "garbage" from the point of view of a modern collector. However, back when they were actually used, swords did break on occasion, and since there was a lot of work invested in these items it was usually preferable to rework the remaining pieces into something that was still/again useful, if possible, rather than recycle the whole thing for scrap metal.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 10, 2020 19:12:05 GMT
I'd wager this particular piece would have been considered irreparable "back in the day" as much as it is today. There's just not enough blade left and boo way to recover any workable kissaki. When with the "broken back" approach, it's barely wakizashi length with a nakago almost as long.
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Post by MOK on Mar 10, 2020 19:21:22 GMT
I'd wager this particular piece would have been considered irreparable "back in the day" as much as it is today. There's just not enough blade left and boo way to recover any workable kissaki. When with the "broken back" approach, it's barely wakizashi length with a nakago almost as long. Might depend mostly on how broke the owner was... just a knife is still better than nothing.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 10, 2020 20:06:43 GMT
I'd wager this particular piece would have been considered irreparable "back in the day" as much as it is today. There's just not enough blade left and boo way to recover any workable kissaki. When with the "broken back" approach, it's barely wakizashi length with a nakago almost as long. Might depend mostly on how broke the owner was... just a knife is still better than nothing. Well, that also comes down to when it was broken. If we assume a samurai at their peak, odds are he could get a new sword fairly easily. They're pretty important, after all, and weren't really in short supply for much of Japan's history. Some dirty peasant would've been very unlikely to have ever had a sword. Any idiot messing around in their backyard with grandpa's war trophy wouldn't know well enough to care. I'm feeling this one most.
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Post by aiki on Mar 10, 2020 20:08:39 GMT
I'd wager this particular piece would have been considered irreparable "back in the day" as much as it is today. There's just not enough blade left and boo way to recover any workable kissaki. When with the "broken back" approach, it's barely wakizashi length with a nakago almost as long. Might depend mostly on how broke the owner was... just a knife is still better than nothing. I can't speak for how it might have been fixed traditionally, but I do know weapons breaking must have been fairly common. There is a lower sword position that hides the blade, and is said to be particularly useful if your sword broke. There is a Yari spear with an asymmetrical cross guard that is said to have been designed after a broken spear head lashed to another one on the battle field. Mike
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Post by MOK on Mar 10, 2020 20:55:10 GMT
Might depend mostly on how broke the owner was... just a knife is still better than nothing. Well, that also comes down to when it was broken. If we assume a samurai at their peak, odds are he could get a new sword fairly easily. They're pretty important, after all, and weren't really in short supply for much of Japan's history. Some dirty peasant would've been very unlikely to have ever had a sword. Any idiot messing around in their backyard with grandpa's war trophy wouldn't know well enough to care. I'm feeling this one most. Right, but having to buy a new sword isn't necessarily reason to simply trash the broken one, especially if you're low on money. It won't ever be a long sword, of course, but it can still serve for a long knife, for tool use if not for combat, and that's always one less expense in case you need to worry about those.
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