Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659 
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Feb 29, 2020 1:04:33 GMT
I'm toying with a fantasy/scifi sword concept which is fundamentally like the Aztec macuahuitl, except with thin metal inserts for the cutting edges, and a dense hardwood as the main structure. The premise is that this would be a weapon for a metal-scarce society, or one without the resources in which to make functional blades entirely out of metal.
If you had an edge insert which was essentially a razor sharp bandsaw blade, would it be feasible to make the supporting wooden sword-form sturdy enough to not break under repeated impact, and thin enough in cross-section to pass through flesh and bone while cutting?
Are there any real-world hardwoods which approach bronze or iron in weight and toughness?
Would it be feasible to impregnate a wood with something like resin to make it perform more like metal? It wouldn't need to be able to hold an edge, that would be the purpose of the metal insert, but can we achieve a level of toughness necessary for use as a weapon without adding too much bulk?
|
|
|
|
Post by pellius on Feb 29, 2020 1:17:43 GMT
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 29, 2020 1:26:28 GMT
I assume the problem isn't to find a wood hard enough to make a steel razor inserted edge that can cut through flesh and bone.
But if you had to parry another hard weapon made of steel or just solid blunt wood or any other hard target it will shatter the edge.
Perhaps a sharp angled bokken with a small sharpened metal coating at the edge instead of embedded razor blades?
|
|
|
|
Post by demonskull on Mar 1, 2020 17:35:51 GMT
I see it more as a bludgeoning, tearing weapon. Instead of metal teeth, try bone or real teeth. Sharpen the backs in addition to the front and using a hollowed out block of wood or metal, countersink them into the frame. This would have the advantage of being easy to replace the "teeth" after they are left in your opponent. Just countersink new ones in the old sockets. The teeth could be fermented in feces to poison your adversaries. Depending on how savage you plan to be.
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 1, 2020 18:05:28 GMT
Perhaps a sharp angled bokken with a small sharpened metal coating at the edge instead of embedded razor blades? I'm not sure what you mean by a metal coating. Are you suggesting a metal edge insert that tapers into the edge profile of the bokken? Perhaps the cross-section of the metal insert would look something like this: ➡️ Only the triangle section would be exposed, and the tang would fit into a slot in the wood. The tang could have something like mekugi ana placed at regular intervals down the length of the insert. A substance like pine tar could also be used to act as a glue, a shock absorber, and to protect the tang from moisture. Bokken have a much thicker cross-section than a metal sword. We would need to be able to make the cross-section thinner for a sword intended to cut more than superficially. What real world woods have the toughness to give us sufficient structure without being too fragile, too light, or too flexible? In the USA, where I'm located, hickory is a tough, dense hardwood often used for axe, maddock, and sledgehammer handles. It's neither expensive, nor hard to come by. If I get around to experimenting with this concept, hickoy is the wood I will probably start with. |
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Mar 1, 2020 18:09:01 GMT
Didn't Joerg Sprave make something very much like this at some point?
PS: He did!
|
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Mar 1, 2020 18:17:41 GMT
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 1, 2020 18:19:00 GMT
I thought of something like this:  |
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 1, 2020 18:19:21 GMT
I see it more as a bludgeoning, tearing weapon. Instead of metal teeth, try bone or real teeth. Sharpen the backs in addition to the front and using a hollowed out block of wood or metal, countersink them into the frame. This would have the advantage of being easy to replace the "teeth" after they are left in your opponent. Just countersink new ones in the old sockets. The teeth could be fermented in feces to poison your adversaries. Depending on how savage you plan to be. I've seen real life examples of shark toothed "swords," and while they certainly look fearsome, that isn't the direction I'm trying to go with this. I'm more interested in exploring the concept of a "sword" which functions as a sword, but utilizes a minimum amount of metal. The metal edge might be one contiguous insert, or several pieces abuted together to form a longer edge. The metal doesn't necessarily have to be iron/steel, but steel of some sort will probably be the easiest to experiment with. |
|
|
|
Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 1, 2020 18:46:45 GMT
The issue with metal inserts is that thin, hard steel edge pieces will be easily damaged and hard to recycle compared to resharpening a sword. I think it's questionable whether that would save much metal in the long run.
A wooden core with ceramic edge inserts makes more sense to me.
|
|
christain
Member
It's the steel on the inside that counts.
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by christain on Mar 1, 2020 19:38:59 GMT
FWIW---Super-Glue makes any kind of wood harder...even soft wood like pine or cedar. Just get several tubes of it and coat the wood liberally. It won't soak all the way through, but it'll make a tough outer shell that can take a beating and be easily renewed.  |
|
|
|
Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 1, 2020 23:15:44 GMT
Maori weapons like the short jade club and longer wooden oar-like clubs are good examples of non-metallic weapons that are very effective. They had thin edges that could lacerate, though not cleanly incise like a sword, and could apparently pop the top of a skull off.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 2, 2020 4:30:58 GMT
Another thought about the metal.
Is quenching possible?
Inlayed steel edges can be quenched before.
If the metallurgic science there doesn't know quenching, then bronze is harder than mild steel and can be work hardened.
That would rather match my "cover" idea.
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 2, 2020 4:40:47 GMT
Bronze is certainly an option. However, it does make it harder to justify the metal scarcity if you are in a position to mine and alloy two different metals (in this case, copper and tin).
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 2, 2020 5:14:28 GMT
Or just tin is in short supply, copper is too soft to make other things than chisels or thick axe heads.
Steel tech (quenching) is also a problem, how can they develop it with so few ore material?
Iron could be from meteorites like the Inuit had, but that is soft too.
Or the metal comes from a landed rescue capsule.
|
|
|
|
Post by unistat76 on Mar 27, 2020 22:52:03 GMT
Not to poo-poo the OP's fantasy sword concept, but from a world building pov, I have a few observations:
-Spears would get you more bang for your buck, metal-wise. Even a short spear could serve as a thrust centric role similar to Zulu tactics.
-Swords as a concept, unless taken from another culture/source, might not even occur to the local metal-poor society.
-If swords were used, I think real swords would still be created in preference to the Aztec thingy, but they would be incredibly rare and high status.
-Maybe something similar to Japan, sword culture-wise. There would be a high degree of unarmed martial arts, wood, and low metal weapons for the commoners.
IDK, I just feel like spears would dominate warfare even more and swords would hardly be missed (except by us, lol!)
|
|
|
|
Post by warriorpoet on Sept 7, 2020 14:07:43 GMT
Yeah its a cool idea. I think in a metal scarce culture spears would probably be more common than smaller individual fitted metal blades on a wooden frame. Or what about tiny metal spikes like the ubiquitous "baseball bat full of nails" concept?
|
|
|
|
Post by wlewisiii on Sept 7, 2020 17:45:10 GMT
How about a carbon fiber core with an easily replaced outer ceramic layer. Ceramics can be quite hard & sharp but tend to the brittle. A carbon fiber core though should have more "give" to allow it to spring under tension - perhaps a balance like that of the hard edge/softer core used in differentially hardened steel blades?
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Sept 8, 2020 17:30:00 GMT
How about a carbon fiber core with an easily replaced outer ceramic layer. Ceramics can be quite hard & sharp but tend to the brittle. A carbon fiber core though should have more "give" to allow it to spring under tension - perhaps a balance like that of the hard edge/softer core used in differentially hardened steel blades? The winding and/or weaving, and then glueing of the carbon fiber is going to be tricky, because it's really only strong in a single direction (being pulled in line with the length of the individual fibers). Of course, there are examples of any number of sophisticated fiber-based weavings, twinings, and knotworkings from "pre-modern" societies. Since the inspiration for my thought experiment was the Fremen of Frank Herbert's Dune, advanced materials like carbon fiber and modern ceramics are certainly feasible. I'd really love to play around with these materials, but I wasn't able to find a good source for zirconium dioxide plates that wasn't prohibitively expensive (especially for just tinkering around with). I'm pretty sure I can get carbon fiber tape and/or woven cloth at cost via my work, and I'll have to inquire about sourcing zirconium dioxide (but I don't remember ever seeing it being used around here for any of our projects). I'm curious about whether sandwiching the zirconium dioxide with a less brittle material might reduce its tendency to fracture. |
|
|
|
Post by solarn on Oct 3, 2020 12:25:59 GMT
Didn't Joerg Sprave make something very much like this at some point? PS: He did! Joerg Sprave really helps to make backyard crafting accessible, at least in terms of interest and going into the necessary planning and proof-to-concept. Really need to start looking into intro to carpentry lessons, just spending time on the weekends fooling around like this while having a hobby that earns income for more collecting seems to be a great investment in these times. Anyone happen to have a worthwhile book or two to peruse for beginners? |
|
