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Post by demented on Feb 28, 2020 16:37:34 GMT
m.facebook.com/notes/the-spadone-project/greatswords-against-pikes-formations-legend-or-truth/1056955391337933/"Greatswords against pikes formations: legend or truth? FEBRUARY 26 · PUBLIC One of the most enduring legends about greatswords in general (but mostly about Landsknecht Doppelsöldner’s Schlachschwert) is that of this kind of swords used to break the pikes hafts or just to disarray the enemy line. It is a long lasting belief which has been putting strong and thick roots for decades if not centuries, presenting itself inside many books and documents in an iterated way, publishing after publishing. It would be hard to trace and list all the web pages, videos and books which mention it, so I will leave this aside, letting you discover them by yourself if you like the thrill of it. Given this huge amount of literature which sponsors the credence, when in history it all started, exactly? What are the sources we have that led authors and historians to believe it true and make it one of the most – if not THE most – romantic and loved topos linked to greatswords until today? In this article for Mamma mia, spadone! I will try to trace this path and summarize a short list of considerations that we should acknowledge before taking this pikes story for truth." ...
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 2, 2020 21:30:47 GMT
Nice summary! One piece missing from testing in this and other areas is the potential for sharp sword blades to cut into ash and similar hardwood shafts as a means not of breaking them but of creating an opportunity for flanking. Though admittedly this seems a lot more viable in a duel than when facing a mass of pikes.
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Post by Dandelion on Mar 2, 2020 23:20:42 GMT
As far i know this is almost so often discussed as the katana vs. longsword war... well, why would there be such a mass of "evidence" if there was no truth in it? The swiss mercenaries carrying those things are well documented in Europe. Mercenary and duels dont mix, i would think?
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 3, 2020 0:23:30 GMT
As far i know this is almost so often discussed as the katana vs. longsword war... well, why would there be such a mass of "evidence" if there was no truth in it? The swiss mercenaries carrying those things are well documented in Europe. Mercenary and duels dont mix, i would think? The fact that they existed, and were used in battle, is not the same thing as knowing the exact role they played. They may have well been used to protect the flanks of pike formations which couldn't easily change their facing, or perhaps used to disperse an enemy formation once a line broke. There are any number of plausible reasons to use greatswords which don't involve them cutting through pike hafts.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 3, 2020 0:27:12 GMT
We have some details of how they were deployed at Flodden, where the Scottish army deployed in the "Continental style" (pike-centric). There, two-handed swords were used to guard the flanks of the pike blocks. Makes sense, since big two-handers are good for dominating a lot of space.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 3, 2020 1:21:04 GMT
A greatsword is still what I would choose to try to deflect and pass pike heads and kill a pikeman in formation regardless of whether the pike shaft is cuttable.
So I don't know the historical truth but it makes intuitive sense to me.
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 3, 2020 1:31:55 GMT
As far i know this is almost so often discussed as the katana vs. longsword war... well, why would there be such a mass of "evidence" if there was no truth in it? The swiss mercenaries carrying those things are well documented in Europe. Mercenary and duels dont mix, i would think? The fact that they existed, and were used in battle, is not the same thing as knowing the exact role they played. They may have well been used to protect the flanks of pike formations which couldn't easily change their facing, or perhaps used to disperse an enemy formation once a line broke. There are any number of plausible reasons to use greatswords which don't involve them cutting through pike hafts. We have some details of how they were deployed at Flodden, where the Scottish army deployed in the "Continental style" (pike-centric). There, two-handed swords were used to guard the flanks of the pike blocks. Makes sense, since big two-handers are good for dominating a lot of space. My vote would be usually (or originally) deployed in conjunction with pikes for the destruction of cavalry, but used tactically as necessary when things went to crap (which would account for the mixed evidence).
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 3, 2020 1:32:32 GMT
I've never even seen a replica pike for sale. How thick should the shaft diameter be? How long? How heavy is a pike overall? Are they tapered thinner towards the head to manage weight without too much flex?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 3, 2020 2:21:08 GMT
A greatsword is still what I would choose to try to deflect and pass pike heads and kill a pikeman in formation regardless of whether the pike shaft is cuttable. So I don't know the historical truth but it makes intuitive sense to me. The very long quillons make them relatively good against spears/pikes - the spear must travel further to go around the quillons to disengage. Where the ends of the quillons turn towards the blade, this can be even better. I've also wondered whether the purpose of Parierhaken is partly to keep spears in, rather than things out. I've never even seen a replica pike for sale. How thick should the shaft diameter be? How long? How heavy is a pike overall? Are they tapered thinner towards the head to manage weight without too much flex? Length about 4.5-5m. About 2.5kg. Taper is usual. Maybe about 35mm at the thickest point (maybe at about the front hand), tapering to about 30mm at the butt, about 25mm at the head. For some measurements, see Hans Müller-Hickler, "Studien über den langen Spieß", Zeitschrift fur Historische Wappenkunde 4(10), 293-305 (1908), doi.org/10.11588/diglit.38677.78See also deventerburgerscap.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-14th-century-pike-and-its.html
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Post by howler on Mar 3, 2020 2:38:37 GMT
As far i know this is almost so often discussed as the katana vs. longsword war... well, why would there be such a mass of "evidence" if there was no truth in it? The swiss mercenaries carrying those things are well documented in Europe. Mercenary and duels dont mix, i would think? The fact that they existed, and were used in battle, is not the same thing as knowing the exact role they played. They may have well been used to protect the flanks of pike formations which couldn't easily change their facing, or perhaps used to disperse an enemy formation once a line broke. There are any number of plausible reasons to use greatswords which don't involve them cutting through pike hafts. This. A group of practiced men continually swinging these weapons would be destructive and hard to bypass. Cutting spears, pikes, polearms would rarely occur, with mostly bouncing, glancing, knocking the shafts out of alignment.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 3, 2020 3:49:24 GMT
Ive tried some greatsword vs pike sparring.
Boy is it difficult for the greatsword team!
Im not sure cutting the pikes would work at all, and smacking the spears doesnt seem to do anything at all and just gets me stabbed in the face.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 3, 2020 4:05:20 GMT
Ive tried some greatsword vs pike sparring. Boy is it difficult for the greatsword team! Im not sure cutting the pikes would work at all, and smacking the spears doesnt seem to do anything at all and just gets me stabbed in the face. That's great stuff there but I can also see how pikes 2-3 times as long would be less capable of quick retracts and fine point control, so a good beat would really open a pike up to being passed.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 3, 2020 4:08:57 GMT
Ive tried some greatsword vs pike sparring. Boy is it difficult for the greatsword team! Im not sure cutting the pikes would work at all, and smacking the spears doesnt seem to do anything at all and just gets me stabbed in the face. That's great stuff there but I can also see how pikes 2-3 times as long would be less capable of quick retracts and fine point control, so a good beat would really open a pike up to being passed. Yes i agree longer pikes would be easier to control. And thinner, so maaaaybe severe damage or cutting of the pikes might be possible? Anyone have a sharp greatsword to give it a go?
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 3, 2020 5:32:53 GMT
That's great stuff there but I can also see how pikes 2-3 times as long would be less capable of quick retracts and fine point control, so a good beat would really open a pike up to being passed. Yes i agree longer pikes would be easier to control. And thinner, so maaaaybe severe damage or cutting of the pikes might be possible? Anyone have a sharp greatsword to give it a go? FWIW, I've seen some Japanese sword against long yari techniques. The spear being much less wieldy than the sword, the basics are, deflect the point and once inside it, force the shaft down to ground the point, and go after the spearman beginning with his hands. Cutting the shaft isn't on the agenda because that leaves your opponent with a jo to parry and hit you with. BTW, just as a yari or a naginata has a long tang to frustrate simply cutting the head off, so does a real pike head have langets down the side for quite a distance for the same purpose.
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Post by howler on Mar 3, 2020 5:50:49 GMT
Great sword was really a weapon used against battlefield formations.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 3, 2020 6:06:54 GMT
Ive tried some greatsword vs pike sparring. Boy is it difficult for the greatsword team! Im not sure cutting the pikes would work at all, and smacking the spears doesnt seem to do anything at all and just gets me stabbed in the face. Is this in Sacramento?
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Post by paulmuaddib on Mar 3, 2020 6:28:20 GMT
Ive tried some greatsword vs pike sparring. Boy is it difficult for the greatsword team! Im not sure cutting the pikes would work at all, and smacking the spears doesnt seem to do anything at all and just gets me stabbed in the face. Is this in Sacramento? I don’t think they were speaking English.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 3, 2020 6:33:42 GMT
I don’t think they were speaking English. Dang. Was watching in the gym with the audio on kill lol
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Post by paulmuaddib on Mar 3, 2020 6:39:08 GMT
I don’t think they were speaking English. Dang. Was watching in the gym with the audio on kill lol Of all the places to pick and you went with Sacramento. Just thought it was a weird place to pick. Haha
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 3, 2020 8:33:11 GMT
Ive tried some greatsword vs pike sparring. Boy is it difficult for the greatsword team! Im not sure cutting the pikes would work at all, and smacking the spears doesnt seem to do anything at all and just gets me stabbed in the face. Is this in Sacramento? Singapore
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