|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 28, 2020 11:30:06 GMT
This is why it is very important to have a teacher, not just trying to learn from yourself. The old saying "a self-taught man has a fool for a teacher" is very true.
Level changes: watch "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan". It's a human nature to only focus on what is going on in the plane we are occupying. Up and down become secondary concerns. A teacher will FORCE you to go to the levels that feel unnatural. I was taught to do this, and it opens up a whole new level of badassery that will make you look like a superman, but in reality it's something anybody can do- you just have to learn to go there.
For the bendy sword vs. stiff sword: it's all about the engineering and human physiology. I'm going to make a broad generalization and say that every sword weighs about the same. The amount of weight is determined by how much a human person can actually lift and use with a minimum of fatigue vs. effectiveness of the weapon. A Katana has a fairly thick beam, with a relatively thin profile. A longsword is the opposite. Both blades contain roughly the same amount of metal. A thinner blade is more flexible, a thicker one is not.
So why is a Kat thick and a longsword thin? In a nutshell, the Japanese had very poor quality iron ore. To make a sword from their raw materials was a difficult process. By necessity, their swords were thicker. Likewise, in Europe, the swordsmiths had access to top notch raw materials and were able to make higher quality steel with less effort, so their swords could be thinner without the risk of breaking.
I know I've made broad assumptions and oversimplified things: my intent is not to debate these topics on this thread, rather I'm pointing out that different swords are used with different techniques due to a number of factors, including cultural and engineering limitations.
So what does this have to do with this topic of a HEMA club? My point is don't join a tennis club if you want to learn golf, then complain they aren't using the equipment you like. If you join a HEMA club, pick up a longsword (or rapier or whatever), and learn how it was used in context. If you want to use a bokken and kat, join a JSA club. Remember, you are trying to join them, not the other way around.
|
|
|
|
Post by vecna808 on Feb 28, 2020 12:05:01 GMT
Nope sorry no idea what that is.
I was surprise how effective some of the " sword behind you " stances were, I found it very hard not to get tagged coming in. But that will change as I get the distance. At the mo am starting my set too far out so he can time me.
Half swording is useles , the guy is giving up so much distance, I can pick my spot and that all she wrote. The oly danger from half sword is if I let him get in which just does not happen.
Both guys I spared were not used to level changes, I tend to go low when rushed.
Both held back all the time, prefering to counter, obviously saving energy.
By end of session I was tagging legs constantly ( started to find distance. ) obviously that is a very weak point of the HEMA style.
I find the moves confused as to what armor they are being applied. I was obviously sparing on the assumption of no aromor duel ( as always ) but they kept popping out strokes / stances obviously designed for armored opponent. It did them no favours.
They were both very very good at reading feints, that shocked me.
Just a thought here, it could be worthwhile to sit down with the instructor and a have a talk about exactly how they're doing things. What style of longsword are they practicing? What assumptions about armour and what rules for sparring are they using? That sort of thing. I'm getting the impression that you're playing a different game to them.
Yes that sounds like a good idea, I do not want to have an unfair advantage. ( if they are simulating aromor and I am not ).
But I have to ask the question ( in fact will make a thread about it ) , why simulate aromor with a long sword ??, especially heavy aromor. I seems to me the LAST weapon I would chose when facing a armored opp is a bloody 2handed sword  Shield and heavy spiky mace/hammer surely ??
If I were a knight, would get the long sword out when had to slaughter a bunch of serfs quickly, thats about it.
I just don get where all the " lets poke my sword into a tiny hole in the guys armpit, ( if by some miracle i get past the shield ) force the tip through 2 layers of chain ( not happening anyway ), all while the guy is jumping around and wailing on my face with a mace" comes from. I get that there are plenty of illustrations and manuals showing longsword with heavy armor, but for a real battlefield they just make no sense.
Plus things like the pommel throw do not exactly inspire confidence in these old "manuals".
|
|
|
|
Post by vecna808 on Feb 28, 2020 13:32:18 GMT
This is why it is very important to have a teacher, not just trying to learn from yourself. The old saying "a self-taught man has a fool for a teacher" is very true. Level changes: watch "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan". It's a human nature to only focus on what is going on in the plane we are occupying. Up and down become secondary concerns. A teacher will FORCE you to go to the levels that feel unnatural. I was taught to do this, and it opens up a whole new level of badassery that will make you look like a superman, but in reality it's something anybody can do- you just have to learn to go there. For the bendy sword vs. stiff sword: it's all about the engineering and human physiology. I'm going to make a broad generalization and say that every sword weighs about the same. The amount of weight is determined by how much a human person can actually lift and use with a minimum of fatigue vs. effectiveness of the weapon. A Katana has a fairly thick beam, with a relatively thin profile. A longsword is the opposite. Both blades contain roughly the same amount of metal. A thinner blade is more flexible, a thicker one is not. So why is a Kat thick and a longsword thin? In a nutshell, the Japanese had very poor quality iron ore. To make a sword from their raw materials was a difficult process. By necessity, their swords were thicker. Likewise, in Europe, the swordsmiths had access to top notch raw materials and were able to make higher quality steel with less effort, so their swords could be thinner without the risk of breaking. I know I've made broad assumptions and oversimplified things: my intent is not to debate these topics on this thread, rather I'm pointing out that different swords are used with different techniques due to a number of factors, including cultural and engineering limitations. So what does this have to do with this topic of a HEMA club? My point is don't join a tennis club if you want to learn golf, then complain they aren't using the equipment you like. If you join a HEMA club, pick up a longsword (or rapier or whatever), and learn how it was used in context. If you want to use a bokken and kat, join a JSA club. Remember, you are trying to join them, not the other way around.
Yes thats fair enough, when in rome and all that.
" learn how it was used in context." No. I will listen to the sword. How some guy used it a few hundred years ago can be of interest , equally it can be total crap.
When a body moves at speed it sings a song, Swords at speed sing their own song ( each sword has its own ), the perfect stroke is a good duet.Like songs, strokes have part technique and part art, they tend to followthe rules of music, yet they can break all the rules and still be genius.
There is only one real teacher, only one audience. Combat. Put simply what works, works.
"a self-taught man has a fool for a teacher" sometimes , sometimes not. I think you said to me not long ago " the proof is in the pudding" ,being to a degree self taught I though ok, lets prove what I do has some worth, find the best sword guy that I can and prove my skill in full speed, full power combat, with a realish weight sword.
Did exactly that, and so far I believe what I do has been very much validated. To ram point home will compete in and win a tourny. ( oh yes and post a video )
|
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 28, 2020 13:56:12 GMT
I would have said "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
If the purpose of a HEMA club is to recreate historic combat methods, then trying to free-form in that organization is a bad fit.
I personally think it would be great to learn historic combat and try to recreate the era in clothing, thought process, and technologies. The JSA community does this, and yes, it can be restrictive. But it is its own art form.
I would never join a HEMA or JSA organization and then tell them how I want it to be. If that's the case, I don't need to be there in the first place. I wouldn't fit in.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 28, 2020 15:28:32 GMT
vecna808 have you got any recent footage?
|
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Feb 28, 2020 17:02:18 GMT
Been silent for a while, work and getting my grade 2.
So I took the advice of forum members and found Denmark's best HEMA guys to beat up :) I will post a vid when can get someone to film the bugger.
Some thoughts. I would like input to.
1) Fencing masks just SUCK ! I am very short sighted anyway, with the mask my distance perception is way off, is there an alternative with Plexiglas ? , that would be ok in competition.
2) the points system ( 2 for the head, and depending on system the head is a blocking shot ) means the HEMA guys mainly just ignore body and limb shots then use the space to reposte to the head, this IMHO skews the fight away from a duel ( no armor ) its just not right that a clean body shot would cause no change in the reposte, in my kenjitsu based style every clean cut counts as a blocking shot, so that taking some time to get used to.
3) Are hand shots really ignored? and gripping the blade with the off hand ??? whats that about ? Are you assumed to have mailed gloves on ? If so why not assume chain mail over whole bloody body ? We all know a sword wont cut mail, so whole body ignored lol.
4) not keen on the European long sword, would I get away with custom equal lengh bokken ( about 140cm I believe ) in competition ?
Overall a lot better experience than expected, my cardio is just so so so so bad, so sparing perfect for that, will be there for a month at least even with the points raised above :)
Cool that you gave HEMA a try! Some points I want to make... 1) Fencing masks take some getting used to. I've worn them since childhood (fenced foil as a kid and teenager before I came to HEMA) and I really don't mind them. Get a good mask with overlay and back of the head protector (with a rigid inlay!). My fencing club developed a specific HEMA fencing mask with Uhlmann, if you want something for high intensity steel longsword, I don't think you can get anything better. uhlmann-fechtsport.com/shop/de/fechtmaske-spezial-1600n-extra-mit-hinterkopf-und-nackenschutz-durch-integrierte-kunststoff-platte.htmlIt has extra padding, a steel reinforcement in the front plus slightly lengthened mesh towards the back to avoid strikes hitting the back of the head or the neck. 2) You experienced the point system of the NHFL (Nordic Historical Fencing League). It has a very heavy afterblow ruleset and yes, indeed, it leads to people ignoring shots to limbs or torso. As long as they can riposte to the head, they will in fact "win" the exchange. I've never liked this system (Swordfish uses it also). It is not the only scoring system out there, there are better ones imo. Every system has its weaknesses though. 3) No, they are not (usually). A clean shot to the hands is scored as a point in almost all scoring systems. A handshot with an afterblow to a higher scoring target can be problematic (see 2). Half-swording has already been explained. Not really a thing in unarmored combat. But gripping a stationary blade and cutting around single-handedly is a legit technique. 4) Generally no. Most tournaments either provide feders or require the fencers to bring them. |
|
|
|
Post by vecna808 on Feb 28, 2020 18:20:35 GMT
vecna808 have you got any recent footage?
Not yet they are meeting again on Monday and tues, hopefully will get some video then, if people there are cool with being recorded obviously. I have my own version of something like that helicopter stroke you posted ( a triple cut, high, middle, low ) which I am thinking of posting for opinions.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Feb 28, 2020 19:13:17 GMT
Got to have a go at that just for a laugh. I predict 20 before I throw up ( cardio lol )
The zwerch and thumb-grip cuts in general, are a mainstay of German systems. They show up not just in Zwerch attacks but in a variety of displacements and cuts. Once you learn how to use them, they can deliver blows more potent than any normal swing. Easily cleaving a head or arm off. And that's something arming swords and longswords are very good at delivering that katana really can't. The video below shows some KDF 101 drills everyone should be doing. I could show you how these work in an afternoon. So I'm not sure why the group your in seems to be ignoring this and the other basic concepts.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Feb 28, 2020 19:16:16 GMT
I personally think it would be great to learn historic combat and try to recreate the era in clothing, thought process, and technologies. The JSA community does this, and yes, it can be restrictive. But it is its own art form. There are some of us trying to do exactly that. The main local group predates "HEMA" and started as part of late medieval living history. We do work in period kit and focus heavily on the manuscripts. One problem is that folks who don't understand what we're doing assume it's LARP or some other fantasy fighting. I remember running into that here, where one user (long gone now) was mocking me for working out MS. I.33 plates in period kit. And you do run into that from the younger HEMA crowd who have only known tournament style fighting. It's an ongoing topic of argument within western martial arts in general. The padded tournaments started 15 years ago or so as a way of testing out theories in full speed, competitive bouts. But they've become something closer to a sport now, with increasingly little emphasis on the sources. It bothers me to hear about new folks who are being thrown into the mosh pit without even receiving basic training. The zwerch, for example, should be known and practiced by everyone in the KDF system. |
|
|
|
Post by vecna808 on Feb 28, 2020 21:36:14 GMT
I would have said "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". If the purpose of a HEMA club is to recreate historic combat methods, then trying to free-form in that organization is a bad fit. I personally think it would be great to learn historic combat and try to recreate the era in clothing, thought process, and technologies. The JSA community does this, and yes, it can be restrictive. But it is its own art form. I would never join a HEMA or JSA organization and then tell them how I want it to be. If that's the case, I don't need to be there in the first place. I wouldn't fit in.
No def not telling anyone anything am just happy to find sparing partners. At the same time I will fight like I fight, unless thats somehow offensive to someone for whatever reason. I am fairly sure they are not pure historical, but not certain. I am cool with learning stuff, but stuff that works.
You keep mentioning. JSA could you elaborate please .
While we are at it, your style is not exactly pure kenjitsu either lol, just like me your way over your front knee, and have adapted to the lunge. In fact there is a lot in your head I would like to learn, I can tell a lot of it would scale up to my speed.
|
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 28, 2020 21:43:24 GMT
My style used to be a bit better, my right leg in the video was bound twice and immobilized with a brace. I am doing little more than dragging it around behind me. I can clearly see several places where my forward attacks were botched because I couldn't get my center over the center. That tends to modify your style somewhat. I usually form in a crouch and do a ton more lateral movements and come up from underneath quite a lot. I showed marcus313 some of those moves after the sparring session and off camera- in slow teach mode But my style isn't pure in the first place, it is a blend of different things. I never claimed to represent a single school or style- I have studied several over the years. But if I were to sign up with a school, I would be happy to learn what they teach. |
|
|
|
Post by vecna808 on Feb 29, 2020 1:17:16 GMT
Got to have a go at that just for a laugh. I predict 20 before I throw up ( cardio lol )
The zwerch and thumb-grip cuts in general, are a mainstay of German systems. They show up not just in Zwerch attacks but in a variety of displacements and cuts. Once you learn how to use them, they can deliver blows more potent than any normal swing. Easily cleaving a head or arm off. And that's something arming swords and longswords are very good at delivering that katana really can't. The video below shows some KDF 101 drills everyone should be doing. I could show you how these work in an afternoon. So I'm not sure why the group your in seems to be ignoring this and the other basic concepts.
Crap ! I got a lot of work to do, there is some good guys about.
|
|
Shield and heavy spiky mace/hammer surely ??
