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Post by vecna808 on Feb 24, 2020 22:19:05 GMT
Been silent for a while, work and getting my grade 2.
So I took the advice of forum members and found Denmark's best HEMA guys to beat up  I will post a vid when can get someone to film the bugger.
Some thoughts. I would like input to.
1) Fencing masks just SUCK ! I am very short sighted anyway, with the mask my distance perception is way off, is there an alternative with Plexiglas ? , that would be ok in competition.
2) the points system ( 2 for the head, and depending on system the head is a blocking shot ) means the HEMA guys mainly just ignore body and limb shots then use the space to reposte to the head, this IMHO skews the fight away from a duel ( no armor ) its just not right that a clean body shot would cause no change in the reposte, in my kenjitsu based style every clean cut counts as a blocking shot, so that taking some time to get used to.
3) Are hand shots really ignored? and gripping the blade with the off hand  whats that about ? Are you assumed to have mailed gloves on ? If so why not assume chain mail over whole bloody body ? We all know a sword wont cut mail, so whole body ignored lol.
4) not keen on the European long sword, would I get away with custom equal lengh bokken ( about 140cm I believe ) in competition ?
Overall a lot better experience than expected, my cardio is just so so so so bad, so sparing perfect for that, will be there for a month at least even with the points raised above |
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Feb 24, 2020 23:40:50 GMT
Whatever point system or hands rules they are using is not universal to HEMA. As for halfswording, it works fine with bare hands and better with leather gloves. You only get cut if your hand slips along the blade, and most of your grip pressure is pinching the flat. No reason you couldn't do it woth a katana, but the value is reduced with a shorter blade. It helps you put an accurate thrust into vulnerable areas of an armored person in close range.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 25, 2020 0:00:48 GMT
Whatever point system or hands rules they are using is not universal to HEMA. As for halfswording, it works fine with bare hands and better with leather gloves. You only get cut if your hand slips along the blade, and most of your grip pressure is pinching the flat. No reason you couldn't do it woth a katana, but the value is reduced with a shorter blade. It helps you put an accurate thrust into vulnerable areas of an armored person in close range.
The katana sword grip only works cos its a single edge, you don grip at all, your resting the back of it in your palm/thmb then steady with the fingers . These guys are gripping it like a hilt, you do that on a razor sharp katana and its no fingers, ( without any movement, and even in gloves) .
What other scoring systems are there ?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 25, 2020 0:05:28 GMT
Half swording a katana is a legitimate move and is taught in some schools of JSA.
Masks suck, and wearing a mask without wearing prescription glasses is worse. But you have to learn to fight half blind. What would happen if you got sweat or dirt thrown in your face in a real fight, or it was dark.? I learned years ago not to rely fully on eyesight. You can see more than you think you can with limited vision
Trust me when I tell you this. Learn to work with limited vision and make it your strength. Don't fight against it, make it your ally.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 25, 2020 0:38:01 GMT
Half swording a katana is a legitimate move and is taught in some schools of JSA. Masks suck, and wearing a mask without wearing prescription glasses is worse. But you have to learn to fight half blind. What would happen if you got sweat or dirt thrown in your face in a real fight, or it was dark.? I learned years ago not to rely fully on eyesight. You can see more than you think you can with limited vision Trust me when I tell you this. Learn to work with limited vision and make it your strength. Don't fight against it, make it your ally.
Only place have seen it is some blocks, its not going to work with a twin edge weapon, although do not like European long sword, they do sharpen up very nice. each to their own but no way would I try that with a live sword, not without chainmail gloves.
Yes yes I obviously do blind fighting, and mask may help with that, but though jeeees its 2020, though has to be a better solution in what 200 years |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 25, 2020 0:45:08 GMT
Whatever point system or hands rules they are using is not universal to HEMA. As for halfswording, it works fine with bare hands and better with leather gloves. You only get cut if your hand slips along the blade, and most of your grip pressure is pinching the flat. No reason you couldn't do it woth a katana, but the value is reduced with a shorter blade. It helps you put an accurate thrust into vulnerable areas of an armored person in close range.
The katana sword grip only works cos its a single edge, you don grip at all, your resting the back of it in your palm/thmb then steady with the fingers . These guys are gripping it like a hilt, you do that on a razor sharp katana and its no fingers, ( without any movement, and even in gloves) .
What other scoring systems are there ?
It's different for each tournament. I have never heard of sparring for points unless in prep for a tournament. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 25, 2020 0:47:56 GMT
Half swording a katana is a legitimate move and is taught in some schools of JSA. Masks suck, and wearing a mask without wearing prescription glasses is worse. But you have to learn to fight half blind. What would happen if you got sweat or dirt thrown in your face in a real fight, or it was dark.? I learned years ago not to rely fully on eyesight. You can see more than you think you can with limited vision Trust me when I tell you this. Learn to work with limited vision and make it your strength. Don't fight against it, make it your ally.
Only place have seen it is some blocks, its not going to work with a twin edge weapon, although do not like European long sword, they do sharpen up very nice. each to their own but no way would I try that with a live sword, not without chainmail gloves.
Yes yes I obviously do blind fighting, and mask may help with that, but though jeeees its 2020, though has to be a better solution in what 200 years You can do it on a sharp blade, you just can't move your hand on the blade or keep it on that long due to resistance. Obviously if you're the one controlling your own sword you can have a sharp blade on your hand without injury. Yeah, fencing masks suck. |
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 25, 2020 2:09:21 GMT
The katana sword grip only works cos its a single edge, you don grip at all, your resting the back of it in your palm/thmb then steady with the fingers . These guys are gripping it like a hilt, you do that on a razor sharp katana and its no fingers, ( without any movement, and even in gloves) .
What other scoring systems are there ?
It's different for each tournament. I have never heard of sparring for points unless in prep for a tournament.
I think they all train for tourneys mainly, when sparing anyway, they have an hour for spar and hour for technique. One guy did mention different tournaments had different rules, jeees that does not make things easy. Still if I can use a bokken then dont care, any rules is fine.
There is something I can not explain about the katana, using a long sword today made me appreciate my bokken all the more. ( I missed my baby so much lol )
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Post by MOK on Feb 25, 2020 5:03:46 GMT
Fencing masks are a pain, true, but a sword in the eye is a far bigger pain!
As said, scoring systems vary a lot between individual clubs and tournaments, because different groups can have very different goals and starting premises that will also vary from one exercise to the next. It sounds like your club uses quite specific assumptions about the gear and style of fight the rules are intended to simulate; the best thing to do to understand it would be to talk with them about it, of course. There have been some efforts at greater standardization within and between various organizations, but given the huge range of simulated activities and conditions involved it will take a lot of careful and coordinated thought.
Half-swording is a close-up technique intended to shorten your reach and vastly increase your leverage and point control. It's mostly a thing in armoured fighting, both because it turns a sword into a much more effective anti-armour tool than it would otherwise be, and because armour makes what is essentially wrestling with sharp levers much less painful - in particular hand armour, since your lead hand is no longer protected by the sword's guard, but everything else also helps because you're not getting cut up all over from the incidental but unavoidable edge contacts (most of which shouldn't get through regular clothing, either, but crap always happens).
For example:
(Just to clarify, the finish there is an upward thrust either into the armpit, or else between the breastplate and mail mantle and up into your throat.)
It does also have applications in unarmoured combat:
The most extreme variation of this technique is, of course, the so-called Mordhau (German for "murder stroke"), where you grab a longsword with both hands on the blade to effectively turn the hilt into a warhammer - not just because the guard tends to make for a passable approximation of a hammer/beak, but also because the mass distribution of a sword is exactly opposite to that of a pure impact weapon and flipping it around lets you hit with a lot more percussive force. With practice, it's surprisingly safe even with a sharp blade, or at least as safe as anything involved in fighting for your life can be. Here Skallagrim demonstrates with a sword not even particularly appropriate for this:
PS. Here Matt Easton explains the whole thing in a little more detail, and also a bit about how it relates to the katana:
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Feb 26, 2020 0:28:33 GMT
On the mask thing, have you tried wearing glasses under the mask? I've done it, with the right frames and mask it works ok. Contacts would be another possibility but I've never worn them so no idea how that might work.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 26, 2020 19:43:55 GMT
Yeah, there are NO set standards for scoring in HEMA. Sometimes we will say "no hands" simply because it's a low key sparring and not everyone has the best gauntlets. Or maybe we're working out some complex sequences and full size gauntlets would make it much harder to do. For most big tournaments, hand hits absolutely do count. No, you generally won't be able to use a bokken. For one thing, wood is mostly restricted to limited speed training and drills. At full speed wood is a WEAPON and the HEMAverse broke its collective fingers using wood back in the day. So the standard for HEMA tournaments are feders. For lower speed stuff you can use simulators, and I suppose if you wanted to do some experimenting in a mosh pit with a sparring-safe katana simulator you could. I don't think anyone makes them though. And for another thing, the bokken doesn't have the right weight or a crossguard. Many techniques from the systems utilize the crossguard and pommel extensively.
Keep in mind, different HEMA groups are very different. Some are focused on tournament, others are focused on learning specific historical systems form manuals. I'd be wary of a group that stars you out doing full speed sparring. But it all comes down to what your goals are.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 26, 2020 20:03:50 GMT
Yeah, there are NO set standards for scoring in HEMA. Sometimes we will say "no hands" simply because it's a low key sparring and not everyone has the best gauntlets. Or maybe we're working out some complex sequences and full size gauntlets would make it much harder to do. For most big tournaments, hand hits absolutely do count. No, you generally won't be able to use a bokken. For one thing, wood is mostly restricted to limited speed training and drills. At full speed wood is a WEAPON and the HEMAverse broke its collective fingers using wood back in the day. So the standard for HEMA tournaments are feders. For lower speed stuff you can use simulators, and I suppose if you wanted to do some experimenting in a mosh pit with a sparring-safe katana simulator you could. I don't think anyone makes them though. And for another thing, the bokken doesn't have the right weight or a crossguard. Many techniques from the systems utilize the crossguard and pommel extensively.
Keep in mind, different HEMA groups are very different. Some are focused on tournament, others are focused on learning specific historical systems form manuals. I'd be wary of a group that stars you out doing full speed sparring. But it all comes down to what your goals are.
Thanks a lot for that mate, very useful.
They did not have a choice, I got the mask and gloves on, picked a partner , then went full speed. Instructor saw where I was within 30 sec, so spent rest of time with him at full speed. Never asked if anyone wanted to take it easy, and no one complained. Lol. |
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 27, 2020 17:53:32 GMT
Huh, well that is unusual. It's typical to spend at least six months drilling before you jump into full speed. And you should be getting at least some historical techniques from the manuals. What group is this?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 27, 2020 18:25:40 GMT
Huh, well that is unusual. It's typical to spend at least six months drilling before you jump into full speed. And you should be getting at least some historical techniques from the manuals. What group is this? Yeah holy crap lol |
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 27, 2020 19:36:15 GMT
Huh, well that is unusual. It's typical to spend at least six months drilling before you jump into full speed. And you should be getting at least some historical techniques from the manuals. What group is this?
Bunch of guys Copenhagen denmark. Not sure should post the link in case get someone in trouble Last thing I want is only sparing I can find in Denmark to go away lol
I am not exactly a beginner tho. I assume they saw that ( I did tell them ). Do not get me wrong I was not at my best: cardio, first time held feder type thing for 20 od years, first time ever for fencing mask, but even then i was 50/50 ( I think ) with instructor dude.
The sparing was great, but so far away from the katana, I just wish could find exactly the same but with bokken. Not going to happen .
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 27, 2020 19:44:47 GMT
There are all sorts of cool things you can do with a longsword that you can't with the katana, though. Have you done zwerchs yet?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 27, 2020 23:36:17 GMT
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 28, 2020 0:42:35 GMT
There are all sorts of cool things you can do with a longsword that you can't with the katana, though. Have you done zwerchs yet?
Nope sorry no idea what that is.
I was surprise how effective some of the " sword behind you " stances were, I found it very hard not to get tagged coming in. But that will change as I get the distance. At the mo am starting my set too far out so he can time me.
Half swording is useles , the guy is giving up so much distance, I can pick my spot and that all she wrote. The oly danger from half sword is if I let him get in which just does not happen.
Both guys I spared were not used to level changes, I tend to go low when rushed.
Both held back all the time, prefering to counter, obviously saving energy.
By end of session I was tagging legs constantly ( started to find distance. ) obviously that is a very weak point of the HEMA style.
I find the moves confused as to what armor they are being applied. I was obviously sparing on the assumption of no aromor duel ( as always ) but they kept popping out strokes / stances obviously designed for armored opponent. It did them no favours.
They were both very very good at reading feints, that shocked me.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 28, 2020 0:47:40 GMT
F**k me that is so cool. Lol lol lol
Got to have a go at that just for a laugh. I predict 20 before I throw up ( cardio lol )
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Feb 28, 2020 3:49:49 GMT
There are all sorts of cool things you can do with a longsword that you can't with the katana, though. Have you done zwerchs yet?
Nope sorry no idea what that is.
I was surprise how effective some of the " sword behind you " stances were, I found it very hard not to get tagged coming in. But that will change as I get the distance. At the mo am starting my set too far out so he can time me.
Half swording is useles , the guy is giving up so much distance, I can pick my spot and that all she wrote. The oly danger from half sword is if I let him get in which just does not happen.
Both guys I spared were not used to level changes, I tend to go low when rushed.
Both held back all the time, prefering to counter, obviously saving energy.
By end of session I was tagging legs constantly ( started to find distance. ) obviously that is a very weak point of the HEMA style.
I find the moves confused as to what armor they are being applied. I was obviously sparing on the assumption of no aromor duel ( as always ) but they kept popping out strokes / stances obviously designed for armored opponent. It did them no favours.
They were both very very good at reading feints, that shocked me.
Just a thought here, it could be worthwhile to sit down with the instructor and a have a talk about exactly how they're doing things. What style of longsword are they practicing? What assumptions about armour and what rules for sparring are they using? That sort of thing. I'm getting the impression that you're playing a different game to them. |
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I will post a vid when can get someone to film the bugger.
whats that about ? Are you assumed to have mailed gloves on ? If so why not assume chain mail over whole bloody body ? We all know a sword wont cut mail, so whole body ignored lol.
