Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 23, 2020 9:51:07 GMT
I tried to find anything useful about this ,,Italian'' sabre for weeks now. Dave Kelly said according to Calamandrei it could be an Italian Mounted Artillery sabre from the 1819 - 1829 era, a period that would fit in with hilt type and the early 19th C. style file work on the drag of the scabbard. The grip though seems to be a later, but professionally done, addition. The blade with its rather low yelman and clipped tip is the main attraction for me. I think the key to the mystery sits in the strange langets. I know I have seen them before somewhere, but I cannot remember where and in what context and it drives me nuts. As I, up till now, didn't actually buy the sabre, Deutsche Blankwaffen will not help me. So, what is this? Kingdom of Sardinia Light Cavalry cum Mounted Artillery? Or something someone on the Italian side picked up from the battlefield after a clash with the Austrians during the first Risorgimento? It doesn't look like an Officers private buy, so it could be a regulation troopers sabre. As the asking price is rather on the high side it is imperative I know what I get before spending sacks of dough.... Man, I like this thing. Dang!
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 24, 2020 9:31:31 GMT
Since none of the guys with real knowledge chimed in some humble thoughts of mine. It looks like a reworked m1796 LC or a 1796 clone. The little insertion in the right angle of the P guard I could only find on US 1812 clones. fencingclassics.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/weighty-matters-italian-saber-vs-broadsword-in-late-victorian-britain/Model C The langets extending into the grip are very unusual, at least with those broad langets, but it looks like the whole hilt was redone with a more modern handle. The clip point speaks also a little bit for an 1812 US saber, perhaps militia.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 24, 2020 17:00:13 GMT
Thank you for looking into this.
The little brace in the joint of the knuckle bow and the guard is quite common on British and Continental sabres. Also seen on British Officer variants of the P1796 LC. And as the P1796 is, like you say, a clone of an Austrian (cannot remember the model) the circle comes back to Austria. But via the Brits and the early US. I was so focused on Austrian and Italian models that I forgot all about these two. Thanks for reminding me. That langets looks like it should be there and as I said, I think I have seen it before. The grip though is another story. It would be great fun if the sabre is a relic of early American times. So, back to the data bases. Thanks again. Totally lost America...Wow!
Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 19:41:36 GMT
It is not in the US books US made sword lack langets entirely and the thickness of the guard material much lighter. What is regarded as "balled" grips are still not finger slots. The clipped points found on a few, such as Rose, Starr, Pettibone and a few others. Most prolific would be the Starr contracts, here is a Pettibone cast steel blade example and my Starr 1818 with a clipped point. The 1818 fullered, where the 1812/1813 swords were not. Starr dropped the scabbard throats entirely after the 1812/1813 contracts. Another US "balled" grip from my files, notes absent for the moment but you get the idea. If you view a US m1833 dragoon sabre you will still.see wider spaced "balling" going on but to a lesser extent. Also absent are the lack of a buttress at the join/right angle of the guards. While still present on some of the US made brass P guards without langet, a process dispensed with entirely with the iron and steel P guards of US manufacture. As to the object sword, it looks mid to later European and not English at all. Let's blame Romania for a moment Cheers GC
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 24, 2020 21:22:51 GMT
Thanks Edelweiss. Very interesting those balled grips. The last sabre you show has a blade that comes close. The knuckle bow on ,,mine'' has the fat and rounded look of the M1811 and later Artillery models. Very German. The seller mailed me the numbers: BL= 87 cm. BW=36 mm and BLT= 11 mm. ,, Let's blame Romania for a moment '' Right'o. Bloody Russians! Cheers.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 24, 2020 21:29:09 GMT
The grip rather looks like an m1902 army, 100 years later than the rest of the hilt or the blade. Still think it's a frankensaber.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 21:36:43 GMT
The grip rather looks like an m1902 army, 100 years later than the rest of the hilt or the blade. Still think it's a frankensaber. Or, Italian All them there katana look alike
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 24, 2020 21:44:01 GMT
.. or an Italian saber 100 years later than the hilt. With half the effort you spent in proving me wrong you probably could have helped Uhlan.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 24, 2020 22:18:03 GMT
.. or an Italian saber 100 years later than the hilt. With half the effort you spent in proving me wrong you probably could have helped Uhlan. .. or an Italian saber 100 years later than the hilt. With half the effort you spent in proving me wrong you probably could have helped Uhlan. All due respect, and I actually got images of the M1902 at first as well (though more the P guard artillery version I have seen floating around eBay) the 1902 and the Italian fingered grips have some pretty good differences between them in form. I am thinking Hungarian/Turkish but I know little outside my own interest groups.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 22:19:06 GMT
.. or an Italian saber 100 years later than the hilt. With half the effort you spent in proving me wrong you probably could have helped Uhlan. My response to you was a nod to the Italian 1888, which strongly resembles a US m1902 as well. It was not meant as a correction so much as a precedent. We could then wonder why the US 1902 looks so much like the French 1882 with the Italian grip www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-model-1888-italian-cavalry-536208469Anyway............ I'm not convinced the grip is original to the sword, so other aspects are better clues. Just as so many also somewhat resemble a 1796 or 1811 form. With less than half the effort, I might have avoided replying to the thread at all. Cheers GC
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 24, 2020 22:41:35 GMT
Shame on me, I admit I made big mistake. The Italian 1888 grip is only 92 years later than the 1796 saber, not 100 years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 22:49:28 GMT
Shame on me, I admit I made big mistake. The Italian 1888 grip is only 92 years later than the 1796 saber, not 100 years. Again, the response was in regard to your referencing the m1902 (with which you prefaced your thought), not in regarding whatever chronology you are equating with the object sword, a generalized type of hilt that both precedes 1796 and lasts to this day. Cheers GC
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 24, 2020 23:00:10 GMT
Did you ever see a m1796/1811 etc. hilt with the broad langets extending into the grip?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 23:06:20 GMT
Did you ever see a m1796/1811 etc. hilt with the broad langets extending into the grip? No, do you have an example to share?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 24, 2020 23:10:06 GMT
The 3rd picture of the OP.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 23:14:41 GMT
The 3rd picture of the OP. In other words, neither have you.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 25, 2020 8:46:47 GMT
To me it looks like a mixture of different time periods. The blade with the yelman starting so soon looks like early 19th century, some 1796 LC or perhaps a similar near East blade. The fingered grip looks like late 19th century. The Blucheresque hilt can be from all time periods after 1796. I couldn't find any picture of a 1796LC/Blucher with such a fingered grip, so the whole hilt might be a custom made piece, which could also explain the unique langets. The clip point corresponences with this theory. Let's see if someone can find a military pattern like this. I still guess it's a Frankenblucher.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 25, 2020 9:43:19 GMT
Temper, temper, temper. I think we may have come near the end of our search gentlemen. Or better: The search is now narrowed down to that rather confusing era of Italian sabre design during the early 19th C. Dave was indeed correct. It seems to point to the 1819 - 1829 period. He mailed me the pages 40 -41 and 42 from the Calamandrei. Thanks a ton Dave! Though the House of Savoy was quite early with regulating the troopers hardware and I assume, tried very hard to do same with Officers, in good Italian tradition the Officers had other ideas and said F you! (more or less). I pointed out this attitude in the review of the Bersaglieri sabre with the habit they had of incorporating ,,family'' blades and so on and also showed that even troopers had some leeway here and there. Officers from other countries also had much freedom to create a more personal weapon, for instance on page 41 we see the second sabre with the double fullered blade which we can find too on some early French M1822 Officers sabres, but the Italians beat them all. This all slowed down a bit over time, but here, in the early 19th C. we are right at the hight of this ,,fashion''. I say this because when one reads the Calamandrei text, between the lines even he seems to have some difficulty at times to really pin down some Officers sabres from this period. What is obvious however is that the fashion for grips made from ebonised wood, Edelweiss calls them ,,balled grips'', was en vogue early on. Where this design comes from is not clear to me at this point. Maybe Edelweiss can help out here, because I have this notion that some patriotic Italian Officers may have looked very much to America and the struggles there and incorporated this Revolutionary (?) design as some sort of freedom flag? Anyway, those wooden Officers grips, whether they had some symbolic meaning or not, can be seen on most Italian Officers sabres right up to WWI.Later on they made them from ,,plastic''. So. My conclusion is that the sabre is indeed early Italian, though I have still to find the one that may the ,,parent'', the langets probably are some personal Officers touch and the blade could be a little earlier. Maybe, just maybe, a family blade. Also there is, for me at least, this Germanic, almost M1811 feel about this sabre. What do you all think?
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 25, 2020 10:25:30 GMT
What Italian? What Italy?? It's Royal Sardinian Army, probably an undocumented variation of their Model of 1819. The finger grip is the giveaway. You've got the book, that may be as far as you get.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 25, 2020 10:29:10 GMT
You have an image of this M1819?
We all know about The Royal Sardinian Army. In a discussion one doesn't want to have to use these long tags. So Italian will do just fine in this context for now.
Cheers.
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