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Post by keithm on Feb 21, 2020 21:01:59 GMT
Could anyone identify this Sword? It was found in a collection 35 years ago, it included some authentic vintage rifles from. WWII. I have my doubts about this as there are no identifying hallmarks or stamps on the blade. I have only ever seen a similar sword on another website and it was Guessed to be Chinese republic police parade sword. Any ideas of value?
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pattyb0009
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Getting into antique sabers...
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Post by pattyb0009 on Feb 21, 2020 21:49:51 GMT
This is a kyu-gunto (lit., old [style/pattern] military sword), a type of Japanese sword issued to officers during the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895) and the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905). After the Meiji Restoration of the midish 1800's, Japan began to modernize, adopting Western technologies and some social customs. This included importing or making Western style weapons in greater numbers. The Samurai class had officially been crushed in the aftermath of the Satsuma Summer Rebellion, and swords were still needed by the government troops. But these couldn't look TOO Samurai, so this style hilt was adopted, imitating Western saber hilts with Japanese flair in the decoration and blade (as the traditional katana blade is very saber like already). As WW2 drew near, Japan adopted a hyper-nationalistic cultural attitude, a social lens which saw the return of Samurai imagery as part of Japan's "glory days" and national identity. Officer's swords began to feature traditional katana inspired/constructed hilts again, but the kyu-gunto were still issued to army, colonial forces, cavalry and (especially) navy during WW2. This model you are showcasing here is an army or colonial kyu-gunto; one of the ways you can tell is the side piece that extends down from the hilt's backstrap and the emblem on the backstrap itself. This is probably an army sword as the symbology on the side piece isn't either Korean occupation or Taiwan occupation symbology. The hilt is wrapped in samegawa, or ray skin. The fittings look to be brass. The blade, while hard to tell, is probably machine stamped metal. We can make that guess by a lack of mekugi (handle pin or peg) that would appear in the hilt to hold a traditionally made blade. Some kyu-gunto featured family heirloom traditionally made blades (dating back potentially hundreds of years with some being of extreme value) while others featured traditionally made blades created specifically for the war effort, probably by smiths working at the famous (or infamous) Yasakuni Shrine, now a war memorial to Japanese fallen. I'll research some more, and let you know what I find, but here are some great resources if you are interested! www.japaneseswordindex.com/military.htmSwords of Imperial Japan , 1868 - 1945 by Jim Dawson The Yasukuni Swords: Rare Weapons of Japan, 1933-1945 by Tom Kishida and Kenji Mishina Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks by Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory The website is a great resource. I own the first two books (they are pricy!), so if you would like scans of the relevant pages, I can provide them. Gregory's book is out of print and also pricey. I've read parts, and it's great. Hope this helps! I will report back whenever I dig up anything else that could be interesting.
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pattyb0009
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Getting into antique sabers...
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Post by pattyb0009 on Feb 21, 2020 22:32:04 GMT
Some other elements also give away the lack of traditional blade construction: traditional blade hilts are usually long (to accommodate the larger tang of a traditional sword) and this tang appears to be peened.
Additionally, this may actually be a police sword. The cherry blossom (appearing on the backstrap here) was the symbol of the Imperial Japanese Army, but they appear on police swords (and, like, everywhere else) as well. Do you have any pics of the blade? Police blades are shorter, typically about 22 inches.
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pattyb0009
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Post by pattyb0009 on Feb 21, 2020 22:42:37 GMT
Yeah, seems likely to be a police blade. Don't know how it escaped my attention but that's a 5 petal cherry blossom, indicative of police swords. The blades don't HAVE to be short, I was just curious about the overall length. I can't tell from the pics, but is that the bronze mouth of a leather or wood scabbard?
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Post by tensho on Feb 21, 2020 22:46:21 GMT
This does not look like a Japanese produced blade. The castings look horrible. The habaki is not correct. I'm not familiar with these, but this looks poorly made.
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pattyb0009
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Getting into antique sabers...
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Post by pattyb0009 on Feb 21, 2020 22:51:38 GMT
This does not look like a Japanese produced blade. The castings look horrible. The habaki is not correct. I'm not familiar with these, but this looks poorly made. It is almost certainly a machine stamped blade. It is most probably an authentic Japanese sword from or before World War 2, but is not traditionally made. The castings/engravings etc. would have been horrible if these were rushed and cheap productions. Japanese swords from World War 2 vary dramatically in quality from bad castings and poorly made stainless blades to exquisitely crafted traditional blades that rival the best from Japan's long and storied sword making tradition.
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Post by tensho on Feb 21, 2020 23:43:18 GMT
I'm well aware it is not traditionally made. There's no reason why the casting of the guard should be so poor. These are supposed to be castings after all. Looks like someone in a third world country made the guard. The cherry blossom on the back strap is also poorly done compared to all other kyu-gunto, parade swords, police sabers etc.. I'm assuming its attempting to replicate this.
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pattyb0009
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Getting into antique sabers...
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Post by pattyb0009 on Feb 22, 2020 0:13:28 GMT
Sure. Could very well be a copy. Wasn't trying to be argumentative. Castings/etchings could possibly be poorly done depending on the stage of the war. Japanese and German weapon production hit a wall, with unskilled labor stepping into factories or makeshift weapons manufacturing operations. I don't see why unskilled laborers couldn't have made bad castings. Not trying to patronize or anything. Just like to chat about this stuff. Also, that could be a cellulose fake ray grip. If it were a fake, I don't know why the effort wouldn't be better spent trying to counterfeit a more valuable type of Japanese sword. Why sell fake Timexes when you can fake Rolexes?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 0:43:13 GMT
Welcome aboard Keith I would go with the Chinese republic much more easily than the Japanese made kyu-gunto and colonial swords. More similar in form to the colonial swords, as shown on Stein's page linked, it still lacks a territorial mon, which all the Japanese colonial swords bore. My colonial sword wears the mon of Tsingtao/Qingdao I am curious as to the dimensions of the blade length and width. Cheers GC an edit to add that a couple of folks have indicated there were three levels of the colonial swords and mine with the eel skin scabbard would have been a middle rank, Sonin, officers sword. As the Japanese only operated in the province from 1917-1922. I came into a fairly scarce sword but not too terribly valuable in its condition. I still don't see this one as Japanese but rather Japanese influenced.
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