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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 13, 2020 19:12:26 GMT
Interesting, according to Dr. Khorasani you absolutely *CAN* thrust with those deeply curved blades. They will pierce around a buckler or shield, and down into the soft bits behind, or up underneath mail skirting. Obviously not more than a few inches, but how much more would you need in a vital area? Particularly when you can then rip the wound open when you pull the blade back around.
IIRC, Easton had a video years ago describing 19th century combat with Saudi tribesmen, where they would essentially half-sword the blades to make close range slashes and leveraged thrusts.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 13, 2020 19:32:13 GMT
OK this got the best of me so it was to the backyard. Actually anything to avoid cutting grass would do. I videoed the event but see no need to process and post unless someone has a burning desire to see it as I can explain here. I used a free standing gallon plastic jug filled with water over which I put 3 plies of rugs. I then used a M1860 cavalry sabre, M1902 dress sabre, both repros with a curved blade and a katana. The two sabres exited the back of the jug. I knew this would happen without a question. Previously four plies of rug were a bit much for the M1860 with its asymmetrical tip while the M1902 with a narrower blade and a symmetrical tip can handle four. So it was three plies today. As usual the M1860 made an impressive wound channel. The M1902 went through with more ease not that the M1860 was difficult by any means, almost like nothing was there. The katana failed but made a deep dent in the jug. I tried a second time with two plies. This time it didn’t even dent the jug indicating that it completely failed to pass through the rugs which equals about to a good gambeson. I could have sworn that I’d successfully thrusted with a katana before but thinking back that was not long after getting involved with swords when my interests were with katanas but I had not learned the effects of clothing and did those bottles naked.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 13, 2020 19:48:50 GMT
I have some old carpeting in the garage. when I get home I will do a stabby test and see what I come up with. now I am intrigued because in the past I have always been able to punch right through anything with a kat, but I never did carpet on top.
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 13, 2020 20:14:03 GMT
I have some old carpeting in the garage. when I get home I will do a stabby test and see what I come up with. now I am intrigued because in the past I have always been able to punch right through anything with a kat, but I never did carpet on top. I have some old carpeting in the garage. when I get home I will do a stabby test and see what I come up with. now I am intrigued because in the past I have always been able to punch right through anything with a kat, but I never did carpet on top. I'm going to bet that it's going to blow through the carpet. I haven't tried the carpet either, but have had some difficulties with fabric penetration in the past. I'd suggest paying particular attention to having a sharp point and edge on your kissaki before attempting this.
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 13, 2020 20:15:31 GMT
OK this got the best of me so it was to the backyard. Actually anything to avoid cutting grass would do. I videoed the event but see no need to process and post unless someone has a burning desire to see it as I can explain here. I used a free standing gallon plastic jug filled with water over which I put 3 plies of rugs. I then used a M1860 cavalry sabre, M1902 dress sabre, both repros with a curved blade and a katana. The two sabres exited the back of the jug. I knew this would happen without a question. Previously four plies of rug were a bit much for the M1860 with its asymmetrical tip while the M1902 with a narrower blade and a symmetrical tip can handle four. So it was three plies today. As usual the M1860 made an impressive wound channel. The M1902 went through with more ease not that the M1860 was difficult by any means, almost like nothing was there. The katana failed but made a deep dent in the jug. I tried a second time with two plies. This time it didn’t even dent the jug indicating that it completely failed to pass through the rugs which equals about to a good gambeson. I could have sworn that I’d successfully thrusted with a katana before but thinking back that was not long after getting involved with swords when my interests were with katanas but I had not learned the effects of clothing and did those bottles naked. Thanks for posting this, food for thought (and experiment).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 13, 2020 22:07:07 GMT
I began running that test through my mind and several things occurred. The tip of the katana was sharp. I gave it a paper test and it will do a razor blade proud. So that wasn’t the problem. I then compared the cutting area and angles of the three. In the photo below from top to bottom M1860, katana, M1902. The point on the M1902 approaches a needle and blade the narrowest. The M1860 has a little more frontal area with the cutting edge swept back, while the katana has the widest blade and the most perpendicular point. Then I remembered my other katana, the first one I bought, and compared. That point looks like it will penetrate better and maybe the one used about 15 years ago when playing with katanas and thrusted. It’s too late today and the jugs need mending but I’ll check that katana out. Maybe…In this photo the katana I used today is on top.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 13, 2020 22:07:19 GMT
I'm trying to remember, in the evolution of the Japanese sword, which came first between shobu and shinogi-zukuri.
I can never remember, either, which was designed for which purpose: One was meant to draw out pull-cuts to create a longer/deeper wound channel, one was designed to enhance cuts with just the tip, and one was for the sake of easier thrusts. Changes due to the visits by the Mongols, if memory serves.
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Post by alexkjren on Feb 14, 2020 17:57:36 GMT
Heian was a long time ago. 794-1145 AD/CE, according to Google. I'm sure these arts were still being taught then, but I'm not so sure about post-Edo. Something new came along around WW2, each would've been Showa, but we're Heisei now. Oops, good catch! *Edo period not Heian. Excuse my dyslexia!
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 14, 2020 18:10:58 GMT
Oops, good catch! *Edo period not Heian. Excuse my dyslexia! Japanese history is weird. All the different periods/eras don't make it easy.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 14, 2020 19:31:03 GMT
OK here’s an update. With one jug sufficiently repaired I picked up where I left off yesterday. This time I used the lower katana in the photo, which was my first real sword or I should say my first dedicated sword. Previously they had been tool/swords. It’s a good one and I stopped using it shortly after receiving the second in order to save it. The second is heavier and makes more powerful cuts while the first is fast as greased lightning. With one rug I exited the back of the jug. That being done and with some water remaining I threw a second rug over the jug and gave point. The katana easily penetrated the front of the jug before the jug fell. I believe it would have gone completely through if the jug had been full. By this time much of the water had leaked out making the jug fairly light. To conserve the jugs I did not try with additional rugs. Those rugs offer much resistance. I’ve only once cut through a rug making a slight cut to a jug, enough for it to leak and that was with a M1860 sabre and I have not been able to repeat it. The jugs are free standing weighted only with the water and rug. I believe if the jugs were better secured I’d be more successful with the cuts. But yes Martha the right Katana can give point, very well I might add.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 15, 2020 8:53:38 GMT
Thanks for the update, but I am still going to cut a rug when I get home. (You see what I did there?😁)
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 15, 2020 9:05:13 GMT
Thanks for the update, but I am still going to cut a rug when I get home. (You see what I did there?😁) Cute. I find that my two unokubi will stab the crap out of fabric covered foam rubber. So does the shinogi-zukuri gunto, but takes a bit more force. Haven't tried any other katana yet.
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 17, 2020 22:59:52 GMT
Thanks for the update, but I am still going to cut a rug when I get home. (You see what I did there?😁) Cute. I find that my two unokubi will stab the crap out of fabric covered foam rubber. So does the shinogi-zukuri gunto, but takes a bit more force. Haven't tried any other katana yet. To add, my original Muromachi, Sengoku-jidai, Mino-school katana stabs very well, but, to my surprise, my Takayama custom gunto (with the exaggerated geometric yokote/kissaki which Takayama expressly intended for thrusting, and which quite likely belonged to the little atrocity-monger himself) won't penetrate the fabric on my target. Now, that's weird.
My best made Chinese shinogi-zukuri katana (which resembles my genuine Mino, and has frightened a couple experts ) stabbed right in and ran the target through better than any of the others. What we have here is inconsistent data. Some of them thrust well, and some of them don't. I'm thinking that minor-looking differences in point geometry are having a lot of influence.
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