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Post by demented on Feb 12, 2020 18:51:33 GMT
These guys look quite a bit more impressive than the ninjas in the other thread. I didn't know these art even still existed.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 12, 2020 19:31:42 GMT
Interesting. I don't know much about that kind of armor, but they do seem to be focused on braced thrust and grappling. That's the right direction, at least.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 12, 2020 20:21:21 GMT
But..but...but..the katana can't thrust...because its curved...
Or maybe it is curved for other reasons ...
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Post by demented on Feb 12, 2020 20:37:47 GMT
But..but...but..the katana can't thrust...because its curved... Or maybe it is curved for other reasons ... Matt Easton's book talks of people being ran threw with sabres, I think. People just like to put everything in a box with a big label.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 12, 2020 21:45:10 GMT
I agree. And if you watch my sparring vid with marcus you will see that I quite freely thrust when the opportunity presents itself.
Logically, who designs a sword that you can't use to stick someone with? Who does that?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 12, 2020 22:38:31 GMT
The katana is thrusting-oriented enough to sacrifice some cutting performance for better thrusts. Compare a katana blade with a British P1796 LC blade. Logically, who designs a sword that you can't use to stick someone with? Who does that? It's just the flipside of people who design swords you can't cut with, purely thrusting swords.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 13, 2020 2:14:25 GMT
But..but...but..the katana can't thrust...because its curved... Or maybe it is curved for other reasons ... I best not let my katanas see this. When they find out that they can’t be thrusted they will stop and that will be a pity. Thinking on it perhaps I best apply censorship to my sabres and doa as well. Oopps, there goes my cutlass. I’ll have to admit my straight bladed swords will do it easier and I have better point control. The original katanas were curved due to the dissimilar metals and the heat treating that caused a difference in expansion. The katanas seen today are curved because that's what one expects in a katana.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Feb 13, 2020 7:40:13 GMT
The katana is thrusting-oriented enough to sacrifice some cutting performance for better thrusts. Compare a katana blade with a British P1796 LC blade. Logically, who designs a sword that you can't use to stick someone with? Who does that? It's just the flipside of people who design swords you can't cut with, purely thrusting swords. The saber's photoshopped, right? Right...?
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Post by bradc on Feb 13, 2020 7:57:46 GMT
But..but...but..the katana can't thrust...because its curved... Or maybe it is curved for other reasons ... I was honestly never aware this was a belief until you mentioned it and I looked it up. 🤯 Who would have thought people would beleive something pointy at the end isn't designed with stabbing in mind. I mean it's not like there is a specific japanese term for the movement, Oh wait.. Also cool video, there are so many arts it amazes me sometimes. I'm kinda jealous they get to wear yoroi Thanks for sharing OP.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2020 8:14:33 GMT
But..but...but..the katana can't thrust...because its curved... Or maybe it is curved for other reasons ... Ya know... It's interesting. I have a Body Opponent Bag, that I have beaten,stabbed and slashed to hell and has been gorilla taped over and over. This thing with several layers of clothing is AT LEAST comparable to a bipedal mammal in a standard gambeson or Kimono. But I would say a lot more resistant. The only sword that struggled to thrust into it without half swording is the Tinker Great Sword of War. I imagine the Executioner sword would have the same trouble or worse. None of my katanas have trouble... nor anything else. I would argue that due to the Katana's tip geometry and it's high stiffness it's actually a GOOD thruster. The most alarming thing in my tests that I have learned is how easily you can stab into it then slash into it. This is especially true when it's wearing just a couple layers of clothing. The GSOW I wouod only put against bear flesh for thrusts, it's flex makes that ability pathetic
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 13, 2020 13:53:50 GMT
But..but...but..the katana can't thrust...because its curved... Or maybe it is curved for other reasons ... Matt Easton's book talks of people being ran threw with sabres, I think. People just like to put everything in a box with a big label. D.A. Kinsley Easton does the foreword. Yeah, lots of accounts of stabbing with sabres. The majority it military sabres in the 19th are about even in their cut and thrust compromise.
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Post by demented on Feb 13, 2020 16:13:37 GMT
Matt Easton's book talks of people being ran threw with sabres, I think. People just like to put everything in a box with a big label. D.A. Kinsley Easton does the foreword. Yeah, lots of accounts of stabbing with sabres. The majority it military sabres in the 19th are about even in their cut and thrust compromise. That is the one I am thinking of. I've heard people say time and time again that you can't stab with sabres, yet it appears to have happened quite often.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 13, 2020 16:29:17 GMT
Anything with a pointed tip can be used for stabbing. I think the real question is how effective it is at doing that.
The katana can effectively stab, so can a saber. Where did this myth come from?
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 13, 2020 16:36:16 GMT
I think people are mixing up the idea that a thrust is less common with styles preferring curved swords than those using straight swords. Not that it never happens or isn't possible.
Obviously there are exceptions to both sides, but that's another topic.
I think it interesting to note that, in this particular video at least, thrusts are done with the blade "upside-down" if you will; that is, the edge is facing upward as the sword is thrust forward.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 13, 2020 16:48:13 GMT
Upside down swording is common. It's more or less the same as right side up, only the attacks are moving up instead of down. It's easier to show than it is to explain. And it's the price to pay for a single edge blade.
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Post by demented on Feb 13, 2020 17:27:10 GMT
Anything with a pointed tip can be used for stabbing. I think the real question is how effective it is at doing that. The katana can effectively stab, so can a saber. Where did this myth come from?No idea but it seems to apply to most curved swords.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 13, 2020 17:59:50 GMT
Upside down swording is common. It's more or less the same as right side up, only the attacks are moving up instead of down. It's easier to show than it is to explain. And it's the price to pay for a single edge blade. I'm just thinking that the last several times I'd seen a kata or what have you demonstrating a thrust with a katana, the edge was down. Seeing it turned upward caught my eye thus. I suppose it works either way, and perhaps depends on the "angle of attack," if you will.
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Post by alexkjren on Feb 13, 2020 18:00:51 GMT
Excellent! I especially enjoyed the part at approx 1:20 where black armor draws red armor's Tanto and stabs him with it, then puts it back in the Saya. Very considerate.
I was aware that the Japanese have their own version of "harnischfechten" as well as written and illustrated manuals from the period when it was actually practiced. But I've never actually seen it done. This is great!
As I understand it, these systems are a lost art that stopped being actively taught and practiced for a few hundred years during the "Heian" period. Modern practitioners are attempting to reconstruct it in a similar manner as HEMA practitioners.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 13, 2020 18:27:35 GMT
Heian was a long time ago. 794-1145 AD/CE, according to Google. I'm sure these arts were still being taught then, but I'm not so sure about post-Edo. Something new came along around WW2, each would've been Showa, but we're Heisei now.
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 13, 2020 18:51:31 GMT
Anything with a pointed tip can be used for stabbing. I think the real question is how effective it is at doing that. The katana can effectively stab, so can a saber. Where did this myth come from? It's spread throughout the secondary literature, meaning authors are copying each other without checking it empirically. It's probably a Victorian brainfart dating to the period around the Meiji Restoration, as a lot of travelers anecdotes and hurriedly written ethnography on Japan appeared about that time.
Referring to the illustration posted by Jussi in the linked thread, some of those sugata are nearly straight, and the use of o-kissaki and a slight sori on the Momoyama period example in the middle suggests that someone was poking people with it, as well as cutting them.
I've certainly been taught thrusts with katana, though the technique is usually two-handed coupled with a charge, rather than one handed with a lunge in a fencer's stance, using a fencing grip. OTOH, you could do that if you wanted to, to the extent one might with any saber.
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