reptaronice1
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Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
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Post by reptaronice1 on Feb 6, 2020 7:47:00 GMT
Musha Bushido Shirasaya may be one of the lightest blades I have held and handles amazing when cutting! Anyone else have a chance to try one of these pieces? www.budk.com/Musashi-Bushido-Natural-Wooden-Shirasaya-Sword-30292 super clean cuts and good HT for the price. Honestly just don’t try stabbing with it and your totally fine.
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Post by bradc on Feb 6, 2020 7:59:10 GMT
Ever considered writing a review? I have seen you comment on Mushas several times before, why not get all your thoughts in one place. Edit: Adding a comment here rather than a new post as it is worth really strongly reiterating. As we have previously discussed sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/57505/good-targets-cutting and others are mentioning here cutting with a shirasaya is inherently not safe. Please be careful and don't get hurt.
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reptaronice1
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Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on Feb 6, 2020 8:02:34 GMT
Ever considered writing a review? I have seen you comment on Mushas several times before, why not get all your thoughts in one place. I may do that but I would have to decide on which one to pick!
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 6, 2020 9:54:33 GMT
Musha Bushido Shirasaya may be one of the lightest blades I have held and handles amazing when cutting! Anyone else have a chance to try one of these pieces? www.budk.com/Musashi-Bushido-Natural-Wooden-Shirasaya-Sword-30292 super clean cuts and good HT for the price. Honestly just don’t try stabbing with it and your totally fine. You do know that is is unsafe to cut with a blade in shirasaya right?
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Post by phoule on Feb 6, 2020 10:16:58 GMT
A shirasaya is made to store a blade, no to use for cutting. The tsuka is not made for use in tamashigiri. You shouldn't use that sword really.
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Post by MOK on Feb 6, 2020 10:44:23 GMT
To elaborate a bit, AFAIK traditional shirasaya are unsafe because the bare wood doesn't give a good grip, and they aren't built to withstand actual use, either, so the dreaded helicopter of death is a distinct possibility. They're also typically of somewhat porous wood that can absorb and trap moisture from your hands and the cutting target, which can lead to unexpected corrosion.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Feb 6, 2020 18:01:26 GMT
The term "shirasaya" gets thrown around quite a bit in the Japanese style sword market, and for koshirae which aren't technically shirasaya. Most of the swords sold as shirasaya would more correctly be classified as shikomizue or aikuchi style mounts.
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Post by MOK on Feb 6, 2020 18:14:20 GMT
The term "shirasaya" gets thrown around quite a bit in the Japanese style sword market, and for koshirae which aren't technically shirasaya. Most of the swords sold as shirasaya would more correctly be classified as shikomizue or aikuchi style mounts. I would say that's true of easily 99% percent of swords sold as "shirasaya".
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Post by paulmuaddib on Feb 6, 2020 18:30:02 GMT
Zen & MOK, this was very confusing when I first started researching katanas. Learned it was for storage and supposed to be unfinished. Yet so many were lacquered. Finally figured out it was just marketing. And also learned very early on that you never cut with one. That’s one the benefits of doing research imo.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 6, 2020 18:33:39 GMT
Its also worth noting...the last review was in 2016; Aug 06, 2016 (3 out of 5)Beautiful sword Ive had this sword for a few days, the pin for the handle is glued in, the blade had print on it, the metal itself scratches with ease, the habaki come very loose after drawing it more than once or twice, over all its more of a show sword than battle ready, its beautiful, but also fragile
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 6, 2020 18:37:18 GMT
The term "shirasaya" gets thrown around quite a bit in the Japanese style sword market, and for koshirae which aren't technically shirasaya. Most of the swords sold as shirasaya would more correctly be classified as shikomizue or aikuchi style mounts. I think you need to take the seller describing his product as in shirasaya at his word. I would say the blade in the manufacturer's photo is in shirasaya mounts but what do I know.... I do not have ANY experience in the low end of the sword market...and probably shouldn't be saying anything.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 6, 2020 18:43:48 GMT
Eh, it's the wrong wood and I'm pretty sure whatever wood it is has been treated with something, so it's not a proper shirasaya, either way.
Shikomizue is probably more accurate, but I'm hesitant to call it that OR aikuchi. There's a specific tsuba/fuchi that typically guess with that. Granted, the Zetsurin is listed as aikuchi, and I'm gonna say both are close enough to aikuchi to call them as such.
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Post by bradc on Feb 6, 2020 19:37:55 GMT
Eh, it's the wrong wood and I'm pretty sure whatever wood it is has been treated with something, so it's not a proper shirasaya, either way. Shikomizue is probably more accurate, but I'm hesitant to call it that OR aikuchi. There's a specific tsuba/fuchi that typically guess with that. Granted, the Zetsurin is listed as aikuchi, and I'm gonna say both are close enough to aikuchi to call them as such. Traditional shirasaya it is not, but as other have mentioned in past and here that habaki to wood interface seems wrong to me for cuting use. Do you (or others) know of historical examples of shikomizue or aikuchi mounted katana, and if the habaki always sat on the fuchi / small tsuba? I'm really not knowledgable on them.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Feb 6, 2020 19:41:55 GMT
the mounting of the linked sword is not truly a shirasaya. from the wood it's made of to how it was made, there are a lot of differences. for one, I believe shirasaya are glued with a rice paste that was meant to be able to be opened again. the furniture above has most definitely been glued with modern wood glue, and while maybe not the cleanest construction and application, it shouldn't break apart as easily as real shirasaya. there might also be less structural integrity to this mounting than a fully finished tsuka but I doubt it will be so easily broken with light cutting(or whatever target type it's rated for). true, it's probably less safe to handle than a proper tsuka with tsuba but I would think that depends more on the user and their training and skills or lack thereof.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 6, 2020 20:18:16 GMT
the mounting of the linked sword is not truly a shirasaya. from the wood it's made of to how it was made, there are a lot of differences. for one, I believe shirasaya are glued with a rice paste that was meant to be able to be opened again. the furniture above has most definitely been glued with modern wood glue, and while maybe not the cleanest construction and application, it shouldn't break apart as easily as real shirasaya. there might also be less structural integrity to this mounting than a fully finished tsuka but I doubt it will be so easily broken with light cutting(or whatever target type it's rated for). true, it's probably less safe to handle than a proper tsuka with tsuba but I would think that depends more on the user and their training and skills or lack thereof. I keep forgetting most of these blades are cutting water bottles and pool noodles... I think cutting and I think used tatami mats and bamboo..
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 6, 2020 20:22:44 GMT
Unfortunately, I don't have any examples of aikuchi available at present, and won't be able to hunt for any anytime soon. If I get around to it, though, I'll report back. In the meantime, I'm sure Josh would be able to enlighten us with his own knowledge.
As for what this particular sword may or may not be capable of cutting, I think skeptics may be surprised what a generally-capable backyard cutter could do with this sword. Tatami and bamboo may not be a great challenge.
I've never cut either, granted, but it seems to me a half-decent edge and okay technique will get almost any sword through either, at least once.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 6, 2020 20:28:49 GMT
I've never cut either, granted, but it seems to me a half-decent edge and okay technique will get almost any sword through either, at least once. In the majority of cases (always exceptions), I respectfully disagree. I would also say that "getting through either, at least once" is NOT tameshigiri. The goal of tameshigiri is to have the tools and develop the skills and technique to CONSISTENTLY get thru your targets correctly. Sure a sharp enough sword with enough muscle behind it will get thru a mat but Wack-a-mole technique is NOT JSA tameshigiri. That said, I have never cut a water bottle or pool noodle but I have cut thousands of tatami mats. Early on for myself and most all my fellow students and competitors, it was difficult to correctly cut the mat using correct technique. You might find it enlightening to watch some videos of Tai Kai's and watch the Kyu ranks perform.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Feb 6, 2020 20:38:25 GMT
the mounting of the linked sword is not truly a shirasaya. from the wood it's made of to how it was made, there are a lot of differences. for one, I believe shirasaya are glued with a rice paste that was meant to be able to be opened again. the furniture above has most definitely been glued with modern wood glue, and while maybe not the cleanest construction and application, it shouldn't break apart as easily as real shirasaya. there might also be less structural integrity to this mounting than a fully finished tsuka but I doubt it will be so easily broken with light cutting(or whatever target type it's rated for). true, it's probably less safe to handle than a proper tsuka with tsuba but I would think that depends more on the user and their training and skills or lack thereof. I keep forgetting most of these blades are cutting water bottles and pool noodles... I think cutting and I think used tatami mats and bamboo.. yes, well in the bigger picture, it's a $60 sword mounted cheaply in wood and plastic so common sense should play a part in the decision to use it on anything more than that. the truth is, the sharper side of the nakago, which I'm guessing is fairly rough and sharp, is right up against the very middle of the seem and with repeated "whacking", I would think it could start to put pressure there and could certainly crack it open with enough force or bad angle cuts. if someone is buying this sword to go to town on hard targets like bamboo or multiple roll tatami, I think the chances of failure can grow pretty high, pretty quickly. it could also easily go the other way and the blade could fail long before the glue. bottom line, I would probably treat this one more as a decoration and very occasional super light backyard cutter. as for the general design, I figure I would probably put more trust in a better version, such as the Hanwei ones available. while still not the best mounting choice for regular or hard use imo, some of those blades are very nice looking and as well made as their fully mounted ones. I don't think even the antique versions of shikomizue were made to take on hard targets for extended periods without risk of damage. it only takes a well placed strike on soft tissue to end a fight quickly, no real need to repeatedly hack away if your skills are sharp enough.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 6, 2020 22:03:29 GMT
I've never cut either, granted, but it seems to me a half-decent edge and okay technique will get almost any sword through either, at least once. In the majority of cases (always exceptions), I respectfully disagree. I would also say that "getting through either, at least once" is NOT tameshigiri. The goal of tameshigiri is to have the tools and develop the skills and technique to CONSISTENTLY get thru your targets correctly. Sure a sharp enough sword with enough muscle behind it will get thru a mat but Wack-a-mole technique is NOT JSA tameshigiri. That said, I have never cut a water bottle or pool noodle but I have cut thousands of tatami mats. Early on for myself and most all my fellow students and competitors, it was difficult to correctly cut the mat using correct technique. You might find it enlightening to watch some videos of Tai Kai's and watch the Kyu ranks perform. Never said anything about tameshigiri, and the "at least once" comment was deliberately tongue-in-cheek. I've seen hundreds of videos of all ranks of JSA, plus HEMA, KSA, and randos slicing up (or trying) tatami and bamboo. One doesn't need special JSA training to develop the skills it takes to put a cheap sword through a medium target. Technique can be learned through experience alone; having a teacher may get there faster. I have neither the space nor funds to set up my own cutting stand etc, but I've seen plenty of guys here do just fine without formal training.
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reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on Feb 6, 2020 23:18:33 GMT
Musha Bushido Shirasaya may be one of the lightest blades I have held and handles amazing when cutting! Anyone else have a chance to try one of these pieces? www.budk.com/Musashi-Bushido-Natural-Wooden-Shirasaya-Sword-30292 super clean cuts and good HT for the price. Honestly just don’t try stabbing with it and your totally fine. You do know that is is unsafe to cut with a blade in shirasaya right? It is not traditional and is epoxied in the tsuka.
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