|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 31, 2020 2:17:23 GMT
What really amazes me is how so many people are so concerned about the type of steel used and really have no idea whether or not the heat treat is actually going to be correct. Newsflash: the heat treat is as or more important than the steel used in a blade. How many of these little hole in the wall shops/forges in China know anything about metallurgy and proper heat treat? it's not that difficult a thing to be able to do. I see amateur knife and sword makers producing a functional hamon in their 1st, 2nd or 3rd tries. creating a hamon is fairly simple but making it a masterful one can take a lifetime. there have been a LOT of beautiful and functional hamon produced by these forges for a long time. there are also plenty of lemons out there, even from more established brands. again, there are steps you can take to increase your chances of getting a well made blade and hamon and reduce your risks. ps I have also witnessed plenty of well ht'd th blades. Asian and western styles in all different price ranges. |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 31, 2020 2:40:25 GMT
What really amazes me is how so many people are so concerned about the type of steel used and really have no idea whether or not the heat treat is actually going to be correct. Newsflash: the heat treat is as or more important than the steel used in a blade. How many of these little hole in the wall shops/forges in China know anything about metallurgy and proper heat treat? it's not that difficult a thing to be able to do. I see amateur knife and sword makers producing a functional hamon in their 1st, 2nd or 3rd tries. creating a hamon is fairly simple but making it a masterful one can take a lifetime. there have been a LOT of beautiful and functional hamon produced by these forges for a long time. there are also plenty of lemons out there, even from more established brands. again, there are steps you can take to increase your chances of getting a well made blade and hamon and reduce your risks. ps I have also witnessed plenty of well ht'd th blades. Asian and western styles in all different price ranges. Creating a functional hamon simply means you have succeeded in getting a differential heat treat on the blade and created a "cosmetic" effect. That still doesn't necessarily mean the heat treat is correct molecular structure of the steel with the right hardness / softness thru the blade to be a durable / resilient /functional sword blade. So many people are focused more on the hamon or the activity in a folded blade, ignoring or unaware of the fact that it is the heat treat that moves a steel blade from being a wall hanger to becoming a real sword/ weapon. |
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 31, 2020 2:54:46 GMT
it's not that difficult a thing to be able to do. I see amateur knife and sword makers producing a functional hamon in their 1st, 2nd or 3rd tries. creating a hamon is fairly simple but making it a masterful one can take a lifetime. there have been a LOT of beautiful and functional hamon produced by these forges for a long time. there are also plenty of lemons out there, even from more established brands. again, there are steps you can take to increase your chances of getting a well made blade and hamon and reduce your risks. ps I have also witnessed plenty of well ht'd th blades. Asian and western styles in all different price ranges. Creating a functional hamon simply means you have succeeded in getting a differential heat treat on the blade and created a "cosmetic" effect. That still doesn't necessarily mean the heat treat is correct with the right hardness / softness thru the blade to be a durable / resilient /functional sword blade. SO many people are focused more on the hamon or the activity in a folded blade, ignoring or unaware of the fact that it is the heat treat that moves a sword from being a wall hanger to becoming a weapon. maybe but when you have 50-100 people a year, for many years, buying and using these swords and reporting good performance and good results, you do kind of know it is done right much of the time and can then also focus on more aesthetic qualities. many of us have been active in the sword community for a very long time and have tested and used a LOT of swords from a LOT of sellers and are not "flying blindly" without solid info. we try to show others how to know the difference and where to go to have a better chance at getting a better sword. it might not seem that way just going by the reviews here, all of the data is not just in one location on one forum |
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jan 31, 2020 2:56:01 GMT
What really amazes me is how so many people are so concerned about the type of steel used and really have no idea whether or not the heat treat is actually going to be correct. Newsflash: the heat treat is as or more important than the steel used in a blade. How many of these little hole in the wall shops/forges in China know anything about metallurgy and proper heat treat? I'm not going to hammer on this (pun intended) any further, but if you really read what I've said so far, it will be obvious that the little hole-in-the-wall shops aren't doing the heat treat. They buy their blades ready to finish and mount. The mill that makes the mass-produced blades is no hole-in-the-wall, and is probably transitioning to fully automated production lines, if it hasn't already.
The master-smith operations that keep showing up in Chinese newspaper articles have nothing to do with the main flow of commercial sword production.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dandelion on Jan 31, 2020 5:31:51 GMT
What really amazes me is how so many people are so concerned about the type of steel used and really have no idea whether or not the heat treat is actually going to be correct. Newsflash: the heat treat is as or more important than the steel used in a blade. How many of these little hole in the wall shops/forges in China know anything about metallurgy and proper heat treat? Oh, really? Hell, we didnt know anything about that! What would we all be doing without you? *sarcasm off* Yes maybe true with the newbis; but here are lots of makers, modders and long time collectors as well. |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 31, 2020 6:01:11 GMT
What really amazes me is how so many people are so concerned about the type of steel used and really have no idea whether or not the heat treat is actually going to be correct. Newsflash: the heat treat is as or more important than the steel used in a blade. How many of these little hole in the wall shops/forges in China know anything about metallurgy and proper heat treat? Oh, really? Hell, we didnt know anything about that! What would we all be doing without you? *sarcasm off* Yes maybe true with the newbis; but here are lots of makers, modders and long time collectors as well. Yes, my comments were directed with all the newbies in mind who know little about the industry and are taken advantage of right and left, focusing on representations about steel and hamon's without knowing far more goes into making a real sword/weapon. They usually find out after their money is gone and they have a POS blade they may hurt themselves with or they more typically paid far more than its worth.. |
|
|
|
Post by loveofswords on Jan 31, 2020 6:09:46 GMT
Oh, really? Hell, we didnt know anything about that! What would we all be doing without you? *sarcasm off* Yes maybe true with the newbis; but here are lots of makers, modders and long time collectors as well. Yes, my comments were directed with all the newbies in mind who know little about the industry and are taken advantage of right and left, focusing on representations about steel and hamon's without knowing far more goes into making a real sword/weapon. They usually find out after their money is gone and they have a POS blade they may hurt themselves with or they more typically paid far more than its worth.. Newbie here, quick question ..... What does it take to make a usable and functional weapon? |
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jan 31, 2020 6:41:10 GMT
Yes, my comments were directed with all the newbies in mind who know little about the industry and are taken advantage of right and left, focusing on representations about steel and hamon's without knowing far more goes into making a real sword/weapon. They usually find out after their money is gone and they have a POS blade they may hurt themselves with or they more typically paid far more than its worth.. Newbie here, quick question ..... What does it take to make a usable and functional weapon? A length of truck spring, a hammer, a crude anvil, pliers as tongs, a file, charcoal burning in a hole in the ground, a bicycle-pump bellows, a bucket of water, and years of experience. Ever been to the Philippines?
|
|
|
|
Post by loveofswords on Jan 31, 2020 7:03:46 GMT
Newbie here, quick question ..... What does it take to make a usable and functional weapon? A length of truck spring, a hammer, a crude anvil, pliers as tongs, a file, charcoal burning in a hole in the ground, a bicycle-pump bellows, a bucket of water, and years of experience. Ever been to the Philippines?
Oh boy  might as well do stock removal and send it out to get professional heat treated then.... save yourself the time and hassle of learning to forge  . |
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jan 31, 2020 7:38:17 GMT
A length of truck spring, a hammer, a crude anvil, pliers as tongs, a file, charcoal burning in a hole in the ground, a bicycle-pump bellows, a bucket of water, and years of experience. Ever been to the Philippines?
Oh boy might as well do stock removal and send it out to get professional heat treated then.... save yourself the time and hassle of learning to forge . BWAAAHH-HA-HA!  BTW, to add insult to injury, those 3 blades above were all DH using the clayless heat the edge orange and stick it in the water technique commonly used on bolos and Nepali khukurris. It works. The Japanese call it hadaki-yaki, and the late master smith Sugita Yoshiaki produced some of his prizewinners using it, kyoto-katana.com/archives/4632/ It's also caught on in the knifemaking community, |
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Jan 31, 2020 12:40:06 GMT
A length of truck spring, a hammer, a crude anvil, pliers as tongs, a file, charcoal burning in a hole in the ground, a bicycle-pump bellows, a bucket of water, and years of experience. Ever been to the Philippines?
While reading that I was picturing the Philippines, then read the last sentence. I've said many times that I wish more companies gave the HRC. I'd much rather see that than what metal(s) were used. |
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jan 31, 2020 18:00:08 GMT
A length of truck spring, a hammer, a crude anvil, pliers as tongs, a file, charcoal burning in a hole in the ground, a bicycle-pump bellows, a bucket of water, and years of experience. Ever been to the Philippines?
While reading that I was picturing the Philippines, then read the last sentence. I've said many times that I wish more companies gave the HRC. I'd much rather see that than what metal(s) were used. Somehow, an intermediate edit of the post below got recorded here. Now it's gone. |
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jan 31, 2020 18:26:08 GMT
While reading that I was picturing the Philippines, then read the last sentence. I've said many times that I wish more companies gave the HRC. I'd much rather see that than what metal(s) were used. I agree that the edge and back hardnesses are more important than fixating on the alloys used (and easily determined with calibrated test files). Repeated assays have shown that the quenched hagane on koto nihonto usually contains around 0.6% carbon, the same as 1060, and the hardnesses test above 60 HRC, so it doesn't require some cryoquenched supersteel to make a superb katana. Also, as anyone who's banged much hot iron already knows, you can easily control finished hardness by what color it glows when quenched, balanced by "running the colors" for parts that require tempering, two techniques that I was taught while making cold chisels in a high-school metalshop around 1967. They didn't start waving thermocouples at me until I got to college.
Part of the irony of all this is that the low-end Longquan swords once were made by handforging techniques in small forges (I have examples, rippled surfaces, open layers, etc.), so the tales of still primarily using small forges get believed. It's just that the traditional techniques weren't as efficient or cost-effective as squirting them out of a steel mill when you've engineered processes that can emulate the older practices, so methods changed. When the blades can look and perform as well as hand forged while being much cheaper (and, frankly, of better quality), I don't have a problem with it. My annoyance is with sellers who continue to spread myths and refuse to tell the truth. I'll note that it's only the people that Paul is upset with that make such claims. The large concerns which sell through SBG make no such claims for their economy lines. They just don't discuss it.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Jan 31, 2020 18:50:17 GMT
While reading that I was picturing the Philippines, then read the last sentence. I've said many times that I wish more companies gave the HRC. I'd much rather see that than what metal(s) were used. ...you can easily control finished hardness by what color it glows when quenched,... There is a fallacy to that line of thinking although basically true. I’ve heard it countless times especially when it comes to blades. Here’s the real story. True that temperature can be gauged by colour BUT that’s depended on ambient lighting. As case in point; after the US entered WWI their M1903 Springfield rifles begin to let go, explode if you will. They were exploding on the range and battle field. Big question, why all of a sudden were the rifles exploding and this put some of the best minds in the country to work and they came up with two causes. One was the process in which the rifles were made and that was with the heat treating of the receivers. Originally they were processed by men who considered themselves masters at the craft. They would put the receivers in the furnace and when the colour was right quenched. These men prided themselves in the art and their ability. What was happening was that the colour was affected by the surrounding light. On a bright day the colour gave one temperature and one a dark day another temperature although there was no visible change in colour. I saw photos of the old plant and it was constructed much like the typical factory of the time with very high roof, no ceiling, and windows high above to allow light and save on electricity. The problem was solved by bringing in equipment to measure the temperature and not eye balling it. The other was the war time quality of ammunition that went down. The tolerances were loosened in the name of production. With good ammo made to the original specs there was enough slop in the difference brittleness of the receivers that there was no issue which came to light only when the ammo was too far out of tolerance making the issue known. |
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jan 31, 2020 19:10:31 GMT
...you can easily control finished hardness by what color it glows when quenched,... There is a fallacy to that line of thinking although basically true. I’ve heard it countless times especially when it comes to blades. Here’s the real story. True that temperature can be gauged by colour BUT that’s depended on ambient lighting. As case in point; after the US entered WWI their M1903 Springfield rifles begin to let go, explode if you will. They were exploding on the range and battle field. Big question, why all of a sudden were the rifles exploding and this put some of the best minds in the country to work and they came up with two causes. One was the process in which the rifles were made and that was with the heat treating of the receivers. Originally they were processed by men who considered themselves masters at the craft. They would put the receivers in the furnace and when the colour was right quenched. These men prided themselves in the art and their ability. What was happening was that the colour was affected by the surrounding light. On a bright day the colour gave one temperature and one a dark day another temperature although there was no visible change in colour. I saw photos of the old plant and it was constructed much like the typical factory of the time with very high roof, no ceiling, and windows high above to allow light and save on electricity. The problem was solved by bringing in equipment to measure the temperature and not eye balling it. The other was the war time quality of ammunition that went down. The tolerances were loosened in the name of production. With good ammo made to the original specs there was enough slop in the difference brittleness of the receivers that there was no issue which came to light only when the ammo was too far out of tolerance making the issue known. Yup, true. Great illustration, BTW.
A couple points here. One is that in manufacturing smokeless-powder weapons, high-powered rifles more than most, you have crossed the line from craft to engineered technology, the same with parts for internal combustion engines, vacuum tubes, etc., which appeared at about the same time. Close tolerances (dimensional, temperature, chemical, etc.) determined by precision measuring tools became absolutely necessary. Trying to craft some things just won't work.
OTOH, in the Japanese and some other blacksmithing traditions, the negative effects of ambient light on color perception was a known, if not fully understood issue, compensated for by performing certain procedures in a darkened shop at night. Works well enough for swords and hand tools, but I still wouldn't care to attempt making a submachine gun or a turbine blade that way. |
|
|
|
Post by Robert in California on Feb 2, 2020 22:43:38 GMT
Short note:
I emailed Van Yang of Jkoo/Sinosword concerning the Wei Ping Yu issue.
I received a mixed English and Chinese answer that my wife did a rough translation of.
I'll plan to try to post it a bit later.
Basically, if I understood everything Van Yang said it was that:
.1. Mr. Yu is not a famous smith. That it was a rumor that was not correct. That he is certified but not nationally.
.2. The pics Paul posted are his forge, but of the old forge, not the new forge.
.3. They make their own blades and swords (using production furniture they fit together).
.4. They can (do?) make about 10 swords a day (unclear if that is 10 blades or 10 swords).
Also unclear is if Jkoo has more than one swordsmith.
So,
.a. Paul is incorrect to call Jkoo/Van Yang a lier.
.b. Mr. Yu is not a famous smith. But judging from my Jkoo swords, he is a competent swordsmith.
.c. Jkoo makes swords that are good value for the money IMO.
RinC
|
|
|
|
Post by Robert in California on Feb 2, 2020 23:20:35 GMT
Here is Jkoo/Sinosword Van Yang's reply (by permission): It is a mix of English and Chinese (which he is more fluent in): RinC ========================================== First,assistant of master national smith in Longquan is not a big deal, Many smiths can get this honor if you take sword to join government's assessment in 10 years ago. and it is in local Longquan,not whole China. We never told our customers that YU wei Ping is a national level smith. It is a rumor We supplied SBG custom katana for over 9 years sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/custom-katana.html ,But we worked with Garrett Chan from Canada, Not Paul. The pictures showed were our forge, it is true, As we said , We are small, and we have moved to a new place. Let me said in Chinese for better expression, Tamahagane 就是自炼钢或土法炼钢，当然我们也是在龙泉本地购买，价格有溢价也正常，PAUL说我们卖400美金的玉刚（自炼刚）就是撒谎，这太奇怪了，我们卖Garrett的定制日本刀100多美元，他们在SBG-custom katana 也能卖到300-400美元。 余伟平不是名人，在龙泉也不是，Jkoo Sword的拥有者就是余伟平，Jkoo的中文叫剑谷，我们从没说余伟平是国家级铸剑师，大概10年前，他有参加过政府的评比，得了一个初级铸剑师奖励，这算不上一个大的荣誉，政府每年都这样的评定，比较鸡肋。 所以我不知道你是从哪里听说的，希望你不要拿余伟平来帮我们宣传,我们实在配不上这样的名号. 我们也从不撒谎，如果你看到照片觉得我们是骗人的话，那我没话说. ========================================== 龙泉有很多专门做刀胚的工厂或作坊，不管是什么刚材，我们会购买粗胚，然后自己加工成型，再做热处理/覆土烧刃和刀片研磨.所以是的，刀片是我们自己做出来的. 我们现在一年才做几千把手工刀，平均一天10多把，我觉得太少. Can I post any of your answers on SBGuide? (RinC) No problem. (Van Yang) |
|
|
|
Post by maewyn on Feb 3, 2020 0:44:17 GMT
Wow this gets funnier and funnier.
National level smiths that arent,assistants that are no big deal unless it's for Ronin or Forge Direct,the sky is falling,buy my Longquan swords not his Longquan swords.
Now SBG is Jkoo.
Lol.Ive held one of each,its possible I suppose.
Hilarious.
|
|
|
|
Post by pvsampson on Feb 3, 2020 1:13:54 GMT
Wow this gets funnier and funnier. National level smiths that arent,assistants that are no big deal unless it's for Ronin or Forge Direct,the sky is falling,buy my Longquan swords not his Longquan swords. Now SBG is Jkoo. Lol.Ive held one of each,its possible I suppose. Hilarious. You forgot the forge that isn't a forge being the old forge and not the new forge. |
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Feb 3, 2020 2:21:56 GMT
Here is Jkoo/Sinosword Van Yang's reply (by permission): It is a mix of English and Chinese (which he is more fluent in): RinC ========================================== First,assistant of master national smith in Longquan is not a big deal, Many smiths can get this honor if you take sword to join government's assessment in 10 years ago. and it is in local Longquan,not whole China. We never told our customers that YU wei Ping is a national level smith. It is a rumor We supplied SBG custom katana for over 9 years sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/custom-katana.html ,But we worked with Garrett Chan from Canada, Not Paul. The pictures showed were our forge, it is true, As we said , We are small, and we have moved to a new place. Let me said in Chinese for better expression, Tamahagane 就是自炼钢或土法炼钢，当然我们也是在龙泉本地购买，价格有溢价也正常，PAUL说我们卖400美金的玉刚（自炼刚）就是撒谎，这太奇怪了，我们卖Garrett的定制日本刀100多美元，他们在SBG-custom katana 也能卖到300-400美元。 余伟平不是名人，在龙泉也不是，Jkoo Sword的拥有者就是余伟平，Jkoo的中文叫剑谷，我们从没说余伟平是国家级铸剑师，大概10年前，他有参加过政府的评比，得了一个初级铸剑师奖励，这算不上一个大的荣誉，政府每年都这样的评定，比较鸡肋。 所以我不知道你是从哪里听说的，希望你不要拿余伟平来帮我们宣传,我们实在配不上这样的名号. 我们也从不撒谎，如果你看到照片觉得我们是骗人的话，那我没话说. ========================================== 龙泉有很多专门做刀胚的工厂或作坊，不管是什么刚材，我们会购买粗胚，然后自己加工成型，再做热处理/覆土烧刃和刀片研磨.所以是的，刀片是我们自己做出来的. 我们现在一年才做几千把手工刀，平均一天10多把，我觉得太少. Can I post any of your answers on SBGuide? (RinC) No problem. (Van Yang) Courtesy of Google Translate (which worked well for a change), slightly cleaned up by me (only blank spaces removed):
Tamahagane is self-steel or earth-steel. Of course, we also buy it locally in Longquan. The price is normal. PAUL said that we sell $ 400 Yugang (self-steel) just to lie. This is strange. Custom Japanese knives for more than $ 100, they can also sell for $ 300-400 in SBG-custom katana.
Yu Weiping is not a celebrity, nor is he in Longquan. The owner of Jkoo Sword is Yu Weiping. Jkoo ’s Chinese name is Jiangu. We never said that Yu Weiping was a national swordsmith. About 10 years ago, he participated in the government ’s evaluation and won. The award of a junior swordsmith is not a big honor. The government evaluates it like this every year, which is relatively bad. So I don’t know where you heard it, I hope you don’t use Yu Weiping to help us publicize it, we really don’t deserve this name. We never lie, if you see the photos and think we are deceiving, Then I have nothing to say.
=============================================
Longquan has many factories or workshops specializing in knife blanks. Regardless of the rigid material, we will buy rough blanks, then process them by ourselves, and then do heat treatment / covered blades and blade grinding. So yes, we make the blades ourselves. of.
We only make a few thousand handmade knives a year now, with an average of more than 10 a day, I think it is too little.
Link to Google Translate originalIMHO, in the above translation, read "sword" for "knife", "steel type" for "rigid material", and "masked blades" (= "clay tempered blades" in eBay ads but is non specific as to masked with what) for "covered blades". |
|
might as well do stock removal and send it out to get professional heat treated then.... save yourself the time and hassle of learning to forge 
.
BTW, to add insult to injury, those 3 blades above were all DH using the clayless heat the edge orange and stick it in the water technique commonly used on bolos and Nepali khukurris. It works. The Japanese call it hadaki-yaki, and the late master smith Sugita Yoshiaki produced some of his prizewinners using it, 
