reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 11, 2020 18:03:24 GMT
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jan 11, 2020 18:13:45 GMT
In all honesty, you overpaid for the knife. While there are some very reputable smiths in Pakistan, they almost never sell their wares outside of the country. The items that do make it onto the international market are mass manufactured using subpar materials and subpar heat treating as well.
Most people who have been in the “game” long enough will avoid any and all Pakistani made knives and/or swords, unless they’re antiques since modern representations are poorly made, and even if they look nice, and not going to do well performance wise.
Pakistani Damascus (layered steel, not to be confused with wootz Damascus or “true” crucible steel Damascus) has a long and sordid history, usually with tales of smiths using any and all kinds of steels in their mixtures without rhyme or reason, other than cost to profit margins. Because of the poor (and oftentimes mysterious) materials (some makers claim to be a mixture of certain steels, but actually could be completely different steels) and heat treatments, I wouldn’t recommend anyone buy from random Pakistani sellers on eBay or social media.
Your Bowie has a nice shape to it, but not knowing the properties of the steels used OR the heat treatment used, I would say again, you overpaid, even if it was “just” $50.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jan 11, 2020 18:18:21 GMT
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 11, 2020 18:48:06 GMT
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Post by markus313 on Jan 11, 2020 19:55:56 GMT
Most people who have been in the “game” long enough will avoid any and all Pakistani made knives and/or swords, unless they’re antiques since modern representations are poorly made, and even if they look nice, and not going to do well performance wise. Hmm… There can be bought very nice stuff out of Pakistan. I bought some very nice knives and axe heads from Pakistan (through ebay and etsy, from ursacraftsman and mdmaxes), and tested them. No problems at all competing with western production stuff like Cold steel or Ontario Knives, for example – rather on the contrary. Most stuff sold out of Pakistan may be really bad though, indeed. I think it depends on the maker, and then on the price point, too.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 12, 2020 3:34:51 GMT
In all honesty, you overpaid for the knife. While there are some very reputable smiths in Pakistan, they almost never sell their wares outside of the country. The items that do make it onto the international market are mass manufactured using subpar materials and subpar heat treating as well. Most people who have been in the “game” long enough will avoid any and all Pakistani made knives and/or swords, unless they’re antiques since modern representations are poorly made, and even if they look nice, and not going to do well performance wise. Pakistani Damascus (layered steel, not to be confused with wootz Damascus or “true” crucible steel Damascus) has a long and sordid history, usually with tales of smiths using any and all kinds of steels in their mixtures without rhyme or reason, other than cost to profit margins. Because of the poor (and oftentimes mysterious) materials (some makers claim to be a mixture of certain steels, but actually could be completely different steels) and heat treatments, I wouldn’t recommend anyone buy from random Pakistani sellers on eBay or social media. Your Bowie has a nice shape to it, but not knowing the properties of the steels used OR the heat treatment used, I would say again, you overpaid, even if it was “just” $50. So it is pattern welded and not Damascus? Seems like real Damascus is iron mixed with glass and sand and ashes and not just folded steel.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 12, 2020 3:41:59 GMT
Thanks I read it! Looks like mine may just be random layered forge weld steel? Seems like real wootz would be just as if not more time consuming than tamahagane
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 12, 2020 3:43:50 GMT
I think it is pattern welded and not etched as when scraped it doesn’t come off and I can feel layers with my nail but hey I’d have to sand it to be sure
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 12, 2020 4:03:15 GMT
So it is pattern welded and not Damascus? It's both. Historically, "damascus steel" referred to both crucible steels with "watered" patterns and pattern-welded steels with "watered" patterns. Etymologically, it just means "watered steel" (i.e., steel with patterns like those on watered silk). Today, "damascus" usually refers to pattern-welded/folded steels. By both modern usage and traditional usage, your knife is damascus steel. Seems like real Damascus is iron mixed with glass and sand and ashes and not just folded steel. Some people will say that only wootz (an Indian crucible steel) is "true damascus". Historically, crucible steels that didn't have a pattern, whether wootz or other crucible steels, weren't damascus. Historically, damascus was never a synonym for wootz or crucible steel. Recipes for crucible steels varied, but wrought iron and cast iron, in about equal quantities, put into a closed crucible and heated in a kiln so that the carbon can diffuse through uniformly, was common. Ideally, heat it enough to melt the contents. Silica in the final product is usually from either slag in the iron or from the walls of the crucible. Charcoal works as a source for the carbon; it doesn't have to be in the form of cast iron. But cast iron is good because (a) it will melt at an achievable temperature, and (b) what else are you going to do with it (unless you're Chinese)?
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 17, 2020 13:47:05 GMT
Is there a good way to tell if this is folded steel or etched?
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jan 17, 2020 14:06:35 GMT
Use a magnifying glass or the microscope option on a cell phone. (assuming you have the option) Look at the edge, you should see faint lines of the various layers in the edge. You also may want to use vinegar or something to help make the pattern more pronounced, this will help you see if its actual layers and not laser etched.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 17, 2020 14:10:21 GMT
Only etched "damaskus" is rare, it's more a theoretical possibility. Polishing or more etching would reveal it. Usually it's pattern welded.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 17, 2020 14:16:29 GMT
Is there a good way to tell if this is folded steel or etched? As has already been said: Look at the edge, you should see faint lines of the various layers in the edge. (and also look at the spine). This knife looks like the usual etched and stained to enhance contrast Pakistani damascus, so I see no reason at all to suspect anything else. There are many etched knives out there these days. Usually kitchen knives, laser-etched, made in China. A randomly-chosen example: www.amazon.com/MICHELANGELO-Damascus-Pattern-Stainless-Japanese/dp/B07V3BRM8NLooks nothing like this bowie.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 17, 2020 14:39:02 GMT
Use a magnifying glass or the microscope option on a cell phone. (assuming you have the option) Look at the edge, you should see faint lines of the various layers in the edge. You also may want to use vinegar or something to help make the pattern more pronounced, this will help you see if its actual layers and not laser etched. Applying vinegar will make it more evident?
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 17, 2020 14:39:21 GMT
Only etched "damaskus" is rare, it's more a theoretical possibility. Polishing or more etching would reveal it. Usually it's pattern welded. Thx!
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 17, 2020 14:40:32 GMT
Is there a good way to tell if this is folded steel or etched? As has already been said: Look at the edge, you should see faint lines of the various layers in the edge. (and also look at the spine). This knife looks like the usual etched and stained to enhance contrast Pakistani damascus, so I see no reason at all to suspect anything else. There are many etched knives out there these days. Usually kitchen knives, laser-etched, made in China. A randomly-chosen example: www.amazon.com/MICHELANGELO-Damascus-Pattern-Stainless-Japanese/dp/B07V3BRM8NLooks nothing like this bowie. Thanks! I just want to make sure it is truly folded
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 17, 2020 14:58:10 GMT
Is there a good way to tell if this is folded steel or etched? As has already been said: Look at the edge, you should see faint lines of the various layers in the edge. (and also look at the spine). This knife looks like the usual etched and stained to enhance contrast Pakistani damascus, so I see no reason at all to suspect anything else. There are many etched knives out there these days. Usually kitchen knives, laser-etched, made in China. A randomly-chosen example: www.amazon.com/MICHELANGELO-Damascus-Pattern-Stainless-Japanese/dp/B07V3BRM8NLooks nothing like this bowie. So I looked at it and took some pictures, I can clearly see layers on the spine but not on the blade, also notice how the tang does not have layers so that makes me think it is a welded on stainless steel tang with a folded layered blade. Lemme know what you guys think about the pictures.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 17, 2020 15:18:46 GMT
The grinding on the tang and the edge is too rough to see whether it's folded. Even with a better polish (i.e., ground more finely) it would be hard to see. That's why the blade has been acid-etched to make the pattern more visible, and also chemically stained for more contrast.
Yes, this is a genuine folded blade. Probably the tang, too.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 17, 2020 15:19:36 GMT
As Timo said, it looks like pattern welded damascus which was etched to enhance the pattern. Perhaps the tang is grinded, polished and not etched so that the pattern isn't visible there. But it can be a welded on tang too, dunno.
Cool, first time I see a pattern that is just etched, not pattern welded & etched. Didn't know such knives really exist.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 17, 2020 20:38:53 GMT
As Timo said, it looks like pattern welded damascus which was etched to enhance the pattern. Perhaps the tang is grinded, polished and not etched so that the pattern isn't visible there. But it can be a welded on tang too, dunno. Cool, first time I see a pattern that is just etched, not pattern welded & etched. Didn't know such knives really exist. I saw at the end you said it was the first time you have seen just an etched blade but timo is saying it is folded? I’m confused? Or are you quoting the knife he linked?
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