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Post by MOK on Dec 11, 2019 1:56:14 GMT
You know I wish I hadn't thrown in the comment about the sports figures taking a knee. It did distract from the whole purpose of the post which was patriotism and the fact that this Marine every year on Memorial Day stands and salutes the Rolling Thunder parade to the Vietnam wall.. He showing his appreciation to those who are honoring the fallen veterans. It's something I strongly believe in. I can dig it.
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Post by howler on Dec 11, 2019 2:21:16 GMT
I'm not even sure that my statement was really even political (not taking sides), except that maybe instead of the word "politics" I should have said "issues". Honestly blown away that someone would feel uncomfortable, and certainly not wanting to do that, as my statement was more discussion (Q&A) on levels of appropriate discussion of sensitive issues in workplace. If I did wrong this is my last post on subject as not wanting to offend. Well, it's calling for censoring the political views of a specific, if seemingly arbitrary, group of people. I see what your saying and would say that I am only asking the question of what levels of expression and where and when appropriate. We can all agree that private expression (the press, Facebook, interviews) should, indeed must be tolerated. The question is at what point are the bosses, employees, customers wishes considered? Of course, I'm not talking about one side of any particular issue or other, but in general. And what if there are fights in the stands between various groups (or at coffee businesses and other companies). I will say that it would be worth it to be fired if I was protesting, say, aggression in Hong Kong, or places where it is worse. Complicated subject based on levels and what is going on. I believe the athletes have a point, as well as all groups, but simple things seem to get so out of hand.
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Post by MOK on Dec 11, 2019 2:51:15 GMT
Well, it's calling for censoring the political views of a specific, if seemingly arbitrary, group of people. I see what your saying and would say that I am only asking the question of what levels of expression and where and when appropriate. We can all agree that private expression (the press, Facebook, interviews) should, indeed must be tolerated. The question is at what point are the bosses, employees, customers wishes considered? Of course, I'm not talking about one side of any particular issue or other, but in general. And what if there are fights in the stands between various groups (or at coffee businesses and other companies). I will say that it would be worth it to be fired if I was protesting, say, aggression in Hong Kong, or places where it is worse. Complicated subject based on levels and what is going on. I believe the athletes have a point, as well as all groups, but simple things seem to get so out of hand. Excrement be complicated! But we still have to deal with it, and while it's fine to demand that everybody grab a shovel, it's not fine at all to demand that some of us not complain about the smell, you know? So to speak.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Dec 11, 2019 3:00:48 GMT
I hate to chime in. I love all the guys participating in this thread. Hell, I feel proud to be American somedays even tho I am not one But I feel like pointing out, that many people in the developed world support those foot ball guys protest, even if USA doesn't. Not really the best topic to have on SBG. I feel like we can do better than that. 😎 I hear ya Trap. While I may be personally more for the cops, my thinking was that athletes in professional sports express themselves on their own private time, just like you and I, the average Joe and Jane. Average folk keep their political & religious opinions to themselves while on the job so that the boss, customers, fellow workers don't have to deal with it, so I believe pro athletes should be held to the same standard. And I think this should go for other countries as well. Of course, what people do on their own time in their private lives is their own affair, freedom of expression wise, so long as they don't hurt others. To what degree is it possible for a professional athlete to keep their opinions private these days? Post something on social media and it will blow up if you have a high enough profile. Or they express their opinions at a private party but someone else films them then posts it online, which has happened. As for those taking the knee during the U.S. national anthem as an expression of political opinion, those standing for the anthem are also a expressing a political opinion. Just something to consider. Lastly where do you work that no one expresses political or religious opinions? Perhaps my view here is somewhat skewed because my workplace is very heavily unionized.
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Post by howler on Dec 11, 2019 3:02:39 GMT
I see what your saying and would say that I am only asking the question of what levels of expression and where and when appropriate. We can all agree that private expression (the press, Facebook, interviews) should, indeed must be tolerated. The question is at what point are the bosses, employees, customers wishes considered? Of course, I'm not talking about one side of any particular issue or other, but in general. And what if there are fights in the stands between various groups (or at coffee businesses and other companies). I will say that it would be worth it to be fired if I was protesting, say, aggression in Hong Kong, or places where it is worse. Complicated subject based on levels and what is going on. I believe the athletes have a point, as well as all groups, but simple things seem to get so out of hand. Excrement be complicated! But we still have to deal with it, and while it's fine to demand that everybody grab a shovel, it's not fine at all to demand that some of us not complain about the smell, you know? So to speak. No doubt complicated...and stinky to high heavens.
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Post by nerdthenord on Dec 11, 2019 3:02:59 GMT
Without getting too political, the reason why I am proud of being American is America is an idea. We don’t always live up to it, but we are founded on the ideas of liberty and equality at a time when literally every other western nation espoused the idea that the government was chosen by god and that “lesser” people should absolutely obey nobles. America is more than just a single nation or government, it’s a global idea that is the ultimate product of the enlightenment, which itself was the greatest thought revolution in the entire history of mankind. Hopefully that’s not too political.
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Post by howler on Dec 11, 2019 3:11:44 GMT
I hear ya Trap. While I may be personally more for the cops, my thinking was that athletes in professional sports express themselves on their own private time, just like you and I, the average Joe and Jane. Average folk keep their political & religious opinions to themselves while on the job so that the boss, customers, fellow workers don't have to deal with it, so I believe pro athletes should be held to the same standard. And I think this should go for other countries as well. Of course, what people do on their own time in their private lives is their own affair, freedom of expression wise, so long as they don't hurt others. To what degree is it possible for a professional athlete to keep their opinions private these days? Post something on social media and it will blow up if you have a high enough profile. Or they express their opinions at a private party but someone else films them then posts it online, which has happened. As for those taking the knee during the U.S. national anthem as an expression of political opinion, those standing for the anthem are also a expressing a political opinion. Just something to consider. Lastly where do you work that no one expresses political or religious opinions? Perhaps my view here is somewhat skewed because my workplace is very heavily unionized. Well, no argument with talking on social media (providing no hate speech), YouTube, interviews, etc...but it gets "complicated" in workplace, no. And again, it is LEVEL of expression, and result of said expression, as few would begrudge hearing coworkers talking at the water cooler the various going on of our state & federal do nothings...err...I mean politicians. I'm the last guy to give answers, only asking questions, being there is no true bad guy or good guy. Sometimes you have to decide if what you want to express is worth a fine or the loss of a job. I some horrible countries the decision may well be life and death.
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Post by MOK on Dec 11, 2019 3:13:49 GMT
Without getting too political, the reason why I am proud of being American is America is an idea. We don’t always live up to it, but we are founded on the ideas of liberty and equality at a time when literally every other western nation espoused the idea that the government was chosen by god and that “lesser” people should absolutely obey nobles. America is more than just a single nation or government, it’s a global idea that is the ultimate product of the enlightenment, which itself was the greatest thought revolution in the entire history of mankind. Hopefully that’s not too political. It's no more political than most of this thread, but it is one hell of a claim to make about oneself.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 11, 2019 5:39:44 GMT
Without getting too political, the reason why I am proud of being American is America is an idea. We don’t always live up to it, but we are founded on the ideas of liberty and equality at a time when literally every other western nation espoused the idea that the government was chosen by god and that “lesser” people should absolutely obey nobles. America is more than just a single nation or government, it’s a global idea that is the ultimate product of the enlightenment, which itself was the greatest thought revolution in the entire history of mankind. Hopefully that’s not too political. It's no more political than most of this thread, but it is one hell of a claim to make about oneself. It's a good claim.
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Post by MOK on Dec 11, 2019 9:02:49 GMT
It's no more political than most of this thread, but it is one hell of a claim to make about oneself. It's a good claim. Well, I mean it's a BIG claim, and takes some nerve. But at least to me it looks like the USA is just another large and powerful country. Better than some, worse than others. Nothing more, nothing less, no different from the rest of humanity.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 11, 2019 9:26:04 GMT
Well, I mean it's a BIG claim, and takes some nerve. But at least to me it looks like the USA is just another large and powerful country. Better than some, worse than others. Nothing more, nothing less, no different from the rest of humanity. It's always healthy to try and see things from the perspective of someone on the "outside". I'm curious, which countries would you rate as "better" than the U.S.A.?
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Post by MOK on Dec 11, 2019 10:04:09 GMT
Well, I mean it's a BIG claim, and takes some nerve. But at least to me it looks like the USA is just another large and powerful country. Better than some, worse than others. Nothing more, nothing less, no different from the rest of humanity. It's always healthy to try and see things from the perspective of someone on the "outside". I'm curious, which countries would you rate as "better" than the U.S.A.? Well, that depends on which metric to use, obviously. Economic stability? Economic mobility? Human rights violations? Average life expectancy? Reported happiness? Suicide rates? Gross national production? Environmental footprint? I'm sure it's possible to find some measure by which any given country is better than the US, and some other by which the US is the best ever. Just like with most other countries. PS. One convenient reference might be the annual World Happiness Report - not the overall rankings, which are frankly nonsense, but the individual metrics on which they're based.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 11, 2019 15:56:03 GMT
I think any person in any country can find a reason to feel pride in their country. The British can take pride in how the RAF was able to hold off the air attacks by the Luftwaffe even though vastly outnumbered. How they survived the air raids on London. The Greeks probably take pride in their contributions to the world in arts and philosophy. Maybe even their courage in the battles of Marathon and Thermopylae and winning their independence again after so many years of occupation. Germans in their engineering advancements and their bravery in stopping the Roman conquest of the world in the Teutoburg Forest. The Jewish people for surviving so many centuries of persecution and to finally have a country of their own. To be able to defend that country while surround by counties that are their enemy's. And the list goes on. Everyone should be able to have pride in their country and countrymen. And none of this has anything to do with government or politics, the people are the country. Unfortunately these day people tend to focus on the negative things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 16:04:33 GMT
I think any person in any country can find a reason to feel pride in their country. The British can take pride in how the RAF was able to hold off the air attacks by the Luftwaffe even though vastly outnumbered. How they survived the air raids on London. The Greeks probably take pride in their contributions to the world in arts and philosophy. Maybe even their courage in the battles of Marathon and Thermopylae and winning their independence again after so many years of occupation. Germans in their engineering advancements and their bravery in stopping the Roman conquest of the world in the Teutoburg Forest. The Jewish people for surviving so many centuries of persecution and to finally have a country of their own. To be able to defend that country while surround by counties that are their enemy's. And the list goes on. Everyone should be able to have pride in their country and countrymen. Unfortunately these day people tend to focus on the negative things. Sorry for contributing to the negativity. You started this thread with nothing but good intentions
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Post by neuronic on Dec 11, 2019 16:17:41 GMT
Unfortunately these day people tend to focus on the negative things. ...don't you, too, when you say that certain overpaid sportsmen shouldn't express their feeling of shame or pride in public? Like I said earlier - be proud of what you achieved personnally. If someone wants you to be proud of anything else, he wants you to feel >> think >> act in very certain way. It's ideology. And that's something we got no need for these days. There's no room for "us vs them", there's only room for "us" - all of us.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 11, 2019 18:15:42 GMT
When I'm at work my personal beliefs and political beliefs stay at home you don't take them to the work place. You're on someone else's time and not being paid to protest. When they're on the field they're at work. The fans who are paying good money are not paying to watch them protest. Some of them are taking a knee because they want more money. If they want to go on talk shows or talk to the press that's their time.
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 11, 2019 20:14:57 GMT
Well, I mean it's a BIG claim, and takes some nerve. That sounds as American as apple pie to me. Being a Texan myself, I'd add, why waste time making small claims, anyway.
For my two cent's worth. I've felt for a long time that we should be paying more attention to real people like SSgt Chambers, and a whole lot less to media-minted celebrities of whatever variety.
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Post by howler on Dec 11, 2019 20:31:21 GMT
I think any person in any country can find a reason to feel pride in their country. The British can take pride in how the RAF was able to hold off the air attacks by the Luftwaffe even though vastly outnumbered. How they survived the air raids on London. The Greeks probably take pride in their contributions to the world in arts and philosophy. Maybe even their courage in the battles of Marathon and Thermopylae and winning their independence again after so many years of occupation. Germans in their engineering advancements and their bravery in stopping the Roman conquest of the world in the Teutoburg Forest. The Jewish people for surviving so many centuries of persecution and to finally have a country of their own. To be able to defend that country while surround by counties that are their enemy's. And the list goes on. Everyone should be able to have pride in their country and countrymen. And none of this has anything to do with government or politics, the people are the country. Unfortunately these day people tend to focus on the negative things. America, the Constitution and Declaration Of Independence (an eternal thought in the mind of God). Of the people, by the people, for the people. Humanity fails to live up to the words, but what amazing words. From the start of the 20th century, a big footprint. Mid 20th century a MIGHTY big footprint and the only current hyper power at this time, maybe most "consequential" would be a better term than "great" (as MOK stated, by what metric). Long before the start of the 22nd century China will be dominant, and I hope and pray that nation adopts the better angels of America (freedom for its people) and discards the mistakes. Each nation, some THOUSANDS of years old, should take pride in their contribution to advancing humanity. Nations and people should learn from the mistakes of their past and focus on the good, and THAT would be truly great.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,625
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Dec 11, 2019 20:55:10 GMT
We should consider replacing The Statue of Liberty with this.
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Post by howler on Dec 11, 2019 21:00:52 GMT
We should consider replacing The Statue of Liberty with this. Beautiful, what is the name of that sculpture? I think the French would take offense if we removed their gift to us, a symbol proclaiming "I lift my lamp to thee".
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