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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 25, 2019 13:43:14 GMT
Hi All! I Blame Edelweiss for this... So in one of the restoration threads, Evaporust was mentioned as a good way to non destructively remove rust. I've got a pitted nasty rusty Argentine 1898 saber that I soaked the blade for 8 hours or so...wrapped in evaporust soaked paper towels, and wrapped in plastic wrap. So the bulk of the rust is gone, there is still some in a few deeper pits. However, anywhere there was rust or exposed steel, it's now black. It also looks like it stained the nickel plating, but I really don't care about that. Plus it might just be the nickel reacting to being wet for 8 hours... When removing and rinsing, I scrubbed the blade in my deep sink with a green scotch brite pad, and it's still black. Not sure if this is normal. My ultimate goal is to polish it up a bit, put an edge on it and kill milk jugs with it. I'm not overly concerned if it breaks/explodes, just to get some feel for an old design and do a hands on review. I am aware the amount of polish/sanding required will remove significant material, so i'm mostly cleaning it up... Thoughts?
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Post by MOK on Nov 25, 2019 14:25:20 GMT
Sounds exciting - if the coloration persists, you may have actually stumbled upon a better, more durable method of cold bluing steel!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 25, 2019 16:19:42 GMT
You'll need abrasives to get it off by my own experience. Unless you have mongoloidic strength or use a power tool you aren't going to remove a significant amount of anything important really.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 25, 2019 18:03:42 GMT
Mok... One of t he things they say in the instructions is 'for extra rust protection' you should let the stuff dry onto the surface. Honestly, this looks like the black rust that really OLD swords and armor get...
As to getting it off, and smoothing the profile, I have lots of ways...from an angle grinder as the most aggressive to just sandpaper and lots of buffer time.
I figure Edelweiss has great input on this too...
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Post by MOK on Nov 25, 2019 19:58:23 GMT
Yeah, I figure it's just another variety of surface oxidation. Might be useful for antiquing a display piece!
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 25, 2019 20:23:30 GMT
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 25, 2019 21:27:18 GMT
Gah...missed that one. Thanks Timo. So they say... ****************************************************** I GOT A BLACK FILM ON SOME PARTS AFTER USING EVAPO-RUST®. WHAT IS IT, AND HOW DO I REMOVE IT? The black film is carbon from the steel. Steel is composed of a combination of carbon and iron. In certain instances, steel will darken in color after rust has been removed from the surface of the metal. This is a natural phenomenon that chemists refer to as “carbon migration”. The carbon from the steel moves, or “migrates”, to the outer layer of the metal and settles into the pores. The removal of the rust (iron oxide) reduces the proportion of iron to carbon, leaving a higher concentration of carbon on the outer surface. This heavier layer of carbon could cause a darkening of the metal due to the attributes of the carbon. The darkening does not have an adverse affect on the metal. It merely represents the movement of carbon from the interior of the metal to the exterior of the metal.
Since Evapo-Rust® is a highly effective rust remover, it stimulates the carbon migration process. Evapo-Rust®is not alone in creating the carbon migration effect. Other rust removal treatments will also result in carbon migration and a darkening of the metal. The primary difference between Evapo-Rust® and the acid based treatments is that Evapo-Rust® will not harm or weaken the metal. Unlike other treatments, Evapo-Rust® will not darken products made with low carbon steel.
With Evapo-Rust®, sometimes a wiping with a dry cloth or a more rigorous buffing can remove the dark coloring. A quick rinsing of the metal after Evapo-Rust® has been applied may also keep the carbon from settling into the pores of the metal.
There are several things that can be tried to minimize the effects of carbon migration. First, high carbon parts should not be soaked longer than necessary. Once the rust has been removed, the parts should be rinsed and dried. Second, a further dilution of the Evapo-Rust® formula may have a positive affect. The lower concentration of Evapo-Rust® will take longer to remove the rust, but may have less of an effect on causing the carbon migration. ****************************************************
Carbon migration. So not black rust, or is that what we've been calling it? Sounds like the surface carbon layer isn't protective....maybe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 22:51:54 GMT
I take it you left it unattended for a long time. Try something like Flitz first, a mild abrasive (something in the aluminum oxide family). Graduate to papers if you must but I would avoid swirlies from an angle grinder. I don't know if a plated blade might accelerate the process but I know I probably would have looked before an hour went by. The Picreator de-corroder probably works in the same fashion and it had been mentioned thatthe Picreator leaves a gray finish. picreator.co.uk/renaissance-metal-de-corroder/The Evapo-Rust had come up at SFI when Matt Easton was looking for a remedy for a really poor looking British sword. There are a couple of Matt Easton threads I could dig up. Regardless, it looks like it's possible to have too much if a good thing. I've never gotten around to trying it, I have not been buying seriously rusty stuff out of choice. Cheers GC
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 22:56:32 GMT
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 26, 2019 14:30:56 GMT
Thanks, I'll dig into the links in depth. (done-great info and discussion, thank you!)
For the record, I checked the worst end at about 2 hrs, and it had a long way to go. I'm considering another soak to get the deepest pits derusted...then I'll start with the polish and see what it does. When in doubt...gonna follow my own rule about starting from lowest grit to higher/highest till i get results. No idea how hard this stuff will be to remove.
Thoughts on the carbon coating...do you think thats the same as 'black rust'?
And I really need to get a pic or 3 up...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 18:56:51 GMT
Imo, you should be able to polish white bright in time. As to the migration, I would still regard that as a topical/surface effect. When one polishes a white bright surface with compound and a rag, the residue on the rag is black. I work finest first whenever there is detail I am trying to save and progress to aggressive if needing to. Why lose more if one does not need to. You have obviously read the thread on plate removal and others on the aggressive route when "restoring" a blade. Again, I avoid extra rusty blades unless they are uncommon and of interest to me. I have had my own methodology for those and have yet to use either the Picreator or Evapo-Rust. Cheers GC PS One blade and hilt you might regard as an aggressive "restoration: that had a badly cracked horn grip and really badly modern grinding of the blade. A sword in progress shot but again, rust was not an issue. What I did preserve (and hard to see) is that I removed the modern sharpening scratches acriss the blade and preserved the original grinding marks. I typically do not recant stereotypes of my methodology but I have had a couple of rusty examples and used the more aggressive mechanical techniques. The most stubbon example is one that had been heavily cold blued and then developed crusty rust. I still haven't gotten to bright white but I do have the original blade grinding marks. I refuse to take more aggressive measures to make it "white" and lose those old factory grind marks Sometimes one reaches a point of not petting the sweaty stuff in striving for perfection vs going whole hog on re-grinding a piece. To me, removing active red is the main hurdle. These will never be brand new. What's killing me a bit is the lack of other's not sharing images to begin with, or even in progress. Let's see your stuff when offering up requests, posting results and even sharing a new toy. I often feel too few are even bothering to post more than text. It is not just you........ One more here. This one looked like the sword in Easton's thread. Again I haven't tried Evapo-Rust. I've left moe than one at a state of being old, not beyond "factory fresh". In progress With others more than a decade ago
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 26, 2019 20:23:15 GMT
So some pics....sorry it's taken me so long...my photo-fu is weak... So you can see a side by side of a nice one vs the crusty one...and the pitting plus different colors that the Evaporust left the steel. Also you can see the pic near the hilt with the "Weyersberg' stamp and the staining of the nickel. The pitting is pretty bad...but I'll post progress as I go.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 26, 2019 20:48:24 GMT
Thoughts on the carbon coating...do you think thats the same as 'black rust'? No. Red rust is usually Fe 2O 3. Hydrated (i.e., with water as part of the crystal structure) if red, not hydrated if brown. Black rust is usually Fe 3O 4 (AKA magnetite). There are some possible types of "black rust", including some other oxides and oxide-hydroxides (e.g., goethite, which is the oxide-hydroxide FeOOH (a hydrated form of which is the yellow rust that can form very quickly on wet steel)). There are also other stable black iron compounds, such as iron tannate (the magic ingredient in oak gall ink), but these don't tend to form just by themselves, since they need more than just iron and the oxygen and water from the atmosphere. If you use tannic acid based rust treatments, you will get iron tannate (and if you happen to cut things high in oxalates with a knife, you can get iron oxalates on the blade (including, from my experience, even on stainless steels - and still visible on a knife used daily after a few years)). One of the better concise rust information pages I've seen: www.armorvci.com/corrosion/types-of-rust/
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 20:48:42 GMT
My sympathies!
I would think that the plate removal might be a start, or a means to an end. Yes, you would need abrasives, You might try scraping first. The edge of a nickel or even carefully with a gouge chisel. The crust is probably softer than it looks. Low grit on a dowel and block, etc.
There is still red rust showing, so de-corrode away!
Cheers GC
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 27, 2019 13:30:46 GMT
OH! One more thing... This stuff puts off a sulfur smell...not huge, but noticeable. Be warned, it may cause wife aggro or accusations of bad gas...
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 28, 2019 8:06:19 GMT
Thanks for the pictures. It looks like the upper layer was eaten away from about half way down to the tip. And the spine is affected too. You could try to sand that part, by hand, with 60 grid on a block just to see what happens, but from my experience I'd say save the energy and regard this as a total loss. There is nothing much left it seems, maybe just 1 mm of the 2-3 mm of healthy steel that used to be there. I would not cut with it as the structural damage may cause the affected part to just break away. I bet one could easily bend that part of the blade now. May I make a suggestion? Take the blade off, direct the work to saving the grip and the basket and try to find a good Argentine blade ( but you already have one) or what would be really nice, put the basket on a French M1829 spare blade with the scabbard. These are not too hard to find. Or an old spare M1854.... This may be an opportunity to create something unique....
Cheers.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 29, 2019 18:09:49 GMT
I do like that suggestion Uhlan. I'm not hung up on if the blade survives my tender attention, its at best a project. Interesting difference between the 2 swords, the clean one makes a click/doink noise when you tap the blade, the crusty one rings in a very high pitch.
So second soak in evaporust. Little change, though it looks like it removed lots under some of the plating, so that peeled away with scrubbing. And the deep rust in the pits was unaffected. Very strange. So my next step is to take my brass wire brush and scrub the crap out if it to see what else comes off....then for the polishing experiments to begin.
No real change visually at this point, so no pics worth noting.
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