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Post by Jayhawk on Nov 22, 2019 2:27:10 GMT
Look what I picked up while on vacation in St. Augustine, FL? In great shape except for the fact the grip has some play in it. Anybody have a way to tighten the grip on a peened sword or a way to get epoxy inbetween parts that are very close together? I'm curious if the grip is wood with brass around it and the wood has shrunk with age. The blade has a small nick in it that looks like it may have been used at least once. Dated 1863 (along with markings over the date of US and AHC) by the Ames Co. with the marking A.P.I. on the guard and the number 37. Thanks, Eric
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 2:33:58 GMT
YAY! I really, really want one of these. Congrats on a great purchase.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 3:03:07 GMT
Photos of the base of the blade if you can show them. The grip is hollow brass, not a wood core. I can check the AHC in a bit, it was the inspector. That's a good looking scabbard. Can we see the other side of that? They were reproduced. A.P.I likely the sub-inspector but I need to open a book. I'm assuming your blade Ames mark looks like this. The mechanical fit is to re-peen but you will mar it. Super runny super glue, just a drop at a time, at the grip ends and capillary action will draw the liquid in. If the blade it tight to the guard (no play), then you should be ok. An 1863 is not a sword I would alter in sharpening it. While there are still some out there, this looks like a nice clean example worth leaving alone. These are quick little swords
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 3:25:00 GMT
So, swapping one nightstand Ames book for another, an 1863 marked sword is one of 3,250 marked so and was delivered by May 13,1863. It was part of the 1862 6,000 sword contract. I have a visual hunch the scabbard is a reproduction. Larger pictures will help. Archibald H. Ceily or A.H.Clark According to this Hickox guide, the only contract and Ames model on which you will find the initials. Nothing in that one for A.P.I but there are a couple of other texts I can look at tomorrow. The 37 likely a rack or inventory mark. I've a late German import in a steel scabbard, a short Roby USMC musician Boy and 1864 Ames nco swords. Cheers GC
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Post by Jayhawk on Nov 22, 2019 3:51:56 GMT
OK...additional pics. The Ames marking is hard to read, and the scabbard is metal covered with leather, which I suspect may be a battlefield or later replacement (although it is seriously old, too...the leather cracks and rust on the exposed metal from where leather came off is clearly not too modern a replacement). The super glue is a good idea...plus, you can remove super glue easily. I definitely have zero plans to sharpen or do anything to it.
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Post by Jayhawk on Nov 22, 2019 3:58:42 GMT
Nice swords GC! I passed up two other 1840 NCO swords at the store in St. Augustine...they were more than I wanted to spend ($750 and $850) for an Ames 1864 (I think that was the year) and an undated Marine 1840 NCO that was made by a German company. Plus, being a musician, a musician's sword seemed more appropriate for my first M1840. Both had original leather scabbards, which was pretty cool. Nice litte store (DMZ Zone).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 4:35:08 GMT
A leather on steel scabbard was likely a later marriage or replacement, as the original would likely have been leather. There were leather on steel scabbards appearing during that decade but not for those war time contract swords (imo).
The 1863 dated swords are desirable, as pre-dating Gettysburg and swords like my 1864 a dime a dozen, and likely never carried.
The Marine nco sabers are actually an 1859 contract and later model. The Marine's musician sword a different story and there were the short boys swords like mine and full size etched blades, in a couple of more variations of the guards. Until the 1859 contract, the regular USMC nco sword was identical to the army m1840 nco.
Cheers GC
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 22, 2019 10:45:59 GMT
Nice sword!
About the scabbard:
Austrian Officials swords of the same period also had a steel scabbard covered in leather. Much more practical than the floppy all leather scabbards that broke and were a nuisance, while retaining the old fashioned look. The leather was lacquered shiny black and made this cover weather proof. As long as the paint was kept intact there was no need for polishing the rust off the steel and this added much convenience in day to day use. No worries of the leather breaking, bending out of shape while the sword was standing in the umbrella stand, or having the blade stuck or even perforating the floppy leather while sheating. This trend never really caught on in the wider world, but the Austrians kept at it for a long time. In this light I'd say the leather covered scabbard could be original. Maybe an optional extra when the sword was ordered?
Also: Edelweiss, I send you a PM yesterday?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 22, 2019 14:15:57 GMT
In great shape except for the fact the grip has some play in it. Anybody have a way to tighten the grip on a peened sword or a way to get epoxy inbetween parts that are very close together? I’ve fixed two swords as you describe with Loctite 242. A gap filling CA glue will also work but the Loctite will give you more working time and easy to wipe the excess off. CA is faster than I care for in this case. Of course epoxy will work but will be reluctant to get into a small gap and probably be visible. Congratulations on your sword. St. Augustine is about the only town that I care to revisit.
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Post by Jayhawk on Nov 22, 2019 14:25:21 GMT
Thanks for the locktite tip!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 17:03:24 GMT
RE leather covered scabbards, this is a recent occurring number of such discussions across a few boards these past weeks. While there is some German association with Ames after the ACW years of the 1860s, Emerson&Silver was the only known contractor using steel (no leather) scabbards for the dated army nco (and musician?) spadroons. There are indications that swords kept in service in later years were equipped with replacement scabbards. That might indicate this sword having a long life in service. That it is federally inspect and known to be of the 1862 contract, it was not a private sale in 1863. As I mentioned in a discussion elsewhere, Ames was just beginning to draw tubes for scabbards about the time the ACW began. There is absolutely no indication Ames would have been delivering the nco and musician swords of the war time contracts with more expensive and more laborious scabbards. I have little doubt Emerson&Silver was importing the steel scabbards for their nco swords. There is yet one more possibility for the entire package together but I think not in this case and that would be Francis Bannerman, who dealt with ACW surplus into the 20th century. I do have a leather on steel scabbard, unmarked militia sword of a form only found with others marked to P.S.Justice and certainly ACW period, and most likely German import. The leather is long gone but seen under the fittings. At any rate, not delivered with that scabbard but could certainly be a replacement after the fact. Cheers GC The Hickox guide a nice thin book to have for the Ames contract swords.
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Post by Jayhawk on Nov 22, 2019 18:28:54 GMT
When I purchased it, I thought it likely the scabbard had met the sword later since it was leather over metal. I wish we could better know the history of some of our antiques.
Where does one obtain a copy of that book on Ames contracts?
Unrelated, I have a Knights of the Maccabees fraternal sword made by Ames, but Ames in Michigan not Massachusetts. Found it for $5 at a garage sale about 35 years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 20:35:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 20:49:44 GMT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 22, 2019 21:07:13 GMT
Thanks for the locktite tip! I should have said a non-gap filling CA glue. That is one with low surface tension and will readily run into cracks. But I believe that you would be ahead of the game with Locktite 242. I’ve used it with excellent success on my P1796 and cutlass. It has low surface tension and easily flows into small cracks. It’s blue in colour making the excess easy to spot and wipe off. It sets in about 20 minutes giving you plenty of work time.
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Post by Jayhawk on Nov 22, 2019 21:10:23 GMT
That sounds ideal!
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Post by Jayhawk on Nov 23, 2019 19:39:03 GMT
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