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Post by charlie on Oct 21, 2019 23:30:40 GMT
I am considering purchasing a sword which is claimed to be an AN XI Light Cavalry Sabre. All appears kosher, however the inscription on the spine is heavily worn but the vendor claims, and photos appear to show the inscrption reads "...........Klingenthal Juilett 1805"
I understand that month and date of manufacture were only added to inscriptions after an imperial decree of 29 April 1810.
Can anyone enlighten me?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 22, 2019 3:09:22 GMT
I am considering purchasing a sword which is claimed to be an AN XI Light Cavalry Sabre. All appears kosher, however the inscription on the spine is heavily worn but the vendor claims, and photos appear to show the inscrption reads "...........Klingenthal Juilett 1805" I understand that month and date of manufacture were only added to inscriptions after an imperial decree of 29 April 1810. Can anyone enlighten me? Where to see pics? You are correct. The edict of the Ordnance Bureau regards production marks added the requirement for a production date group for Apt 1810.
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Post by charlie on Oct 22, 2019 3:28:12 GMT
bygoneblades.com
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Post by pellius on Oct 22, 2019 13:02:39 GMT
The dealings I’ve had with Bygone Blades have been fine, with no shenanigans. I don’t indemnify them or anything, but I don’t think they will knowingly swindle you.
I considered their ANXI, but it seemed a bit pricey for my budget. With the GBP rising fast against the USD, I had to let that one go.
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Post by pellius on Oct 22, 2019 13:07:46 GMT
Never mind. Link won’t work.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 22, 2019 13:26:39 GMT
That'll be this one: bygoneblades.com/buy-french-napoleonic-wars-year-xi-light-cavalry-sabre-1805With l'Hoste in hand I can make one observation immediately: this sabre has an AN IX scabbard with flat ring mounts and a screw. The AN XI does not have the screw and has slightly bulbous mounts. A sabre including the scabbard of the AN IX type must not weigh more than 1650 grams. The AN XI type goes up to 2769 grams as the scabbard sheet steel is thicker at 2.5 mm. Cannot read the poinçons, so it is hard to tell whether the sabre is AN IX or AN XI. It does not really matter as they are the same anyway. A reason of concern to me is this Klingenthal signature. I cannot find it in l'Hoste Armes Blanches. The K seems to be written different from any of the period. As to the year dating only after 1810, l'Hoste confirms this, so here is another thing to worry about apart from the unreadable poinçons. Here the seller should have worked a little harder for his $$$. Another is the grip. It looks too neat to me. And lastly: there's no image of the peen. For the price alone I would look elsewhere. Euro 1500 for an AN XI troopers is way over the top and the f*ck you vibe I get from the lousy poinçon image and absence of a good peen image would be enough for me. I am not saying bygoneblades isn't trust worthy by the way, but in the AN IX - AN XI world it is very well advised to be sceptical and ask many questions.
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Post by pellius on Oct 22, 2019 13:42:07 GMT
Uhlan - thank you very kindly for the information.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 22, 2019 13:59:49 GMT
Was just thinking it may be a pastische of parts with various dates put together after 1810 and ante dated 1805 on the basis of the , for those who did this, readable blade poinçons? Interesting on its own accord. Was it assembled in the period or way after? Who knows? My rules: Cannot read the poinçons? Let it go. Inscription funky? Let it go. We're talking serious money here and especially with these over hyped icons one better be very careful.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 22, 2019 19:13:34 GMT
Was just thinking it may be a pastische of parts with various dates put together after 1810 and ante dated 1805 on the basis of the , for those who did this, readable blade poinçons? Interesting on its own accord. Was it assembled in the period or way after? Who knows? My rules: Cannot read the poinçons? Let it go. Inscription funky? Let it go. We're talking serious money here and especially with these over hyped icons one better be very careful. Okay everyone can relax. Some poor fool bought it. There are three AN XI LCs on ebay as of now.
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Post by charlie on Oct 23, 2019 7:16:28 GMT
Good evening gents,
I have attached correspondance with the vendor below which is self explanatory (but comments are in reverse order. Start at the bottom!) He has withdrawn the item for sale pending further investigation. He seems straightforward to me. Will be interesting to see what experts make of the sword.
Good morning Charlie, Yes you can quote my email on your forum. I have had a look and while I feel that the member Ulahn has been a little unfair in his suggestion that I have posted unclear photos and avoided putting a picture of the peen on my website, I feel the rest of the discussion was OK. The poincon are worn/hidden by the langets but the photos themselves were the best I could provide and were clear and in focus. I also did not avoid posting a peen photo, it just never occurred to me. My site also clearly states that I am happy to provide any additional photos requested. Lastly, as with all dealers, I am open to reasonable offers, although with this sword I paid nearly £900 to buy it! If that is in question I have the receipt to prove it. Again, please let me assure you and your members that I will never knowingly sell a fake and as a reputable dealer you are also fully protected with a no quibble returns policy. Best regards, Richard
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 5:11, Charles Cotton <verypukka@xtra.co.nz> wrote: Good day Richard,
Thanks for the clarification. I am more or less a complete beginner in the current market, although I did have a passing interest in my boyhood in the 60’s when you could (and I did) buy similar items for less than a tenner from junk shops or "Exchange and Mart”. Alas all stolen about 30 years ago.
I had some correspondence on the SBG Sword Forum website about this item which may be of interest to you. If you agree I would like to post your reply which appears to me to be informative, reasonable and honourable.
From what I have read in the past few weeks the world of AN IX / XI swords is complex and murky with all sorts of anomalies and much outright fakery. I would be interested to hear what your researches reveal.
Felicitations,
Charlie
On 23/10/2019, at 2:28 AM, richard@bygoneblades.com wrote:
Dear Charlie, Further to your email concerning the French AN XI cavalry sabre, I have removed it from the website while I investigate further. As you stated, Klingenthal dating began in 1810 and as such this sabre is suspect. I bought the sword some time ago, early in my collecting career and before turning my hobby into a business. It seems that I may have made a costly mistake! I added the sword to the website over a year ago and made the additional error of not doing proper research prior to listing it. The markings and poincon on the blade and hilt appear correct and I really feel that the sword is genuine so I am working on the theory that someone added the spine engraving at a later date, although why they did this, and why they chose the date of July 1805 is any bodies guess. I am going to try to show the sword to someone at the IWM in Leeds in the hopes that they can shed some light. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It is not and never will be my intention to offer fakes on my website. Kind regards, Richard
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 8:55:18 GMT
I only briefly looked at the blade, as these really aren't my study but just now reading a shared page and then remembering Jean Binck's page largely agrees with the book page. fwiw users.skynet.be/euro-swords/klingenthal.htm
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 23, 2019 20:52:32 GMT
To Richard:
I did not mean to come over as unfair or harsh. It is just that with a little LED key fob light one can shine a bright beam of truth into the smallest of spaces. I use one every time to see what is under langets and what is going on way down in scabbards. These $1 LED key fob lights work very well. As to the peen: Klingenthal and most other forges made a nice round and slightly globular peen, almost impossible to immitate. If this peen is reworked or looking like a hammered down nail head this shows there was work done on the sabre. The armouries, when replacing a blade had the knowhow and the tools to lengthen the tang a couple of mm. Here the pommel cap dome will be intact though the peen itself may look off. Many an amateur just shaves off some of the pommel cap dome and peens the blade. An image of the pommel cap dome and the peen is quite essential. At least for me. Anyway, I hope the sabre is alright and you are not stuck with a GBP 900 loss. That said, I am very curious as to the explanation of how the spine text came about. It looks very well done. That is why I was thinking the sabre was reassembled after 1810, maybe even at Klingenthal and the spine etched according to the new rules. The AN XI sabres were in use long after Napoleonic times, so it does not have to be a forgery. Please keep us posted?
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