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Post by hyakkihei on Nov 23, 2019 18:18:14 GMT
Again, no natural daylight sadly, it looks better in the natural daylight, I should take pics the next day sometimes But here is it with the brass seppa. Also I had ordered a batch of seppa at the same time I ordered these cheaper ones, but they took so long to arrive. I took the grime off a bit, and noticed one of them was silver, some were copper, some were brass ( though one of them has some bubbling, maybe coated? ) But that last one, the one with the two extra bigger images in this collage, I can't figure out what this is. It doesn't look like silver, definitely not like copper, doesn't really look like brass either. It has this weird dark shine to it that I can't say I've seen before. It's not magnetic, so I guess it's not iron. It had a green-ish caked on oxidation on it initially, which led me to think it was something with copper in it, but after removing that oxidation and polishing it a bit, it's definitely shiny, but dark. Anyone know what this is?
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christain
Member
It's the steel on the inside that counts.
Posts: 2,835
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Post by christain on Nov 23, 2019 20:44:17 GMT
The last piece on your last photo looks like it *might* be bronze. I know nothing of Japanese swords, so.....
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Post by tensho on Nov 24, 2019 15:19:15 GMT
Only seppa I know of are; copper, brass, gold, silver, German silver, aluminum, shakudo (gold and copper mixture that is patinated to turn black)
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Post by hyakkihei on Nov 24, 2019 19:03:12 GMT
Ha, I definitely don't know enough about metals to be able to confirm any of those. German silver is a new one to me though, didn't know about that alloy. I got a picture of the state it was in before I cleaned it up Considering how blue/green this oxidation is I definitely want to say it's a copper alloy of some sort. Cleaned up as a bit dark silver-colored.
How unusual is it to have two different colored seppa used in a single sword? Because of how nicely it cleaned up, I kinda want to use it, but I don't have anything to match it. Is that necessarily a bad thing?
On another note. While I was looking up the stuff I need to order for the tsuka and saya, I was looking at urushi. I'm having a really hard time finding something that describes how exactly to use the urushi. I got to a point where they talk about having a specific kind of urushi to rub over the wood and wipe off, mixing it with something to act as filler, and using urushi in layers to lacquer with. But I'm having a hard time figuring out of this is all the same urushi being used, whether it's diluted with something, and how much it's diluted with. I did see that the urushi used for filler was mixed with rice glue and whatnot.
But also considering how long urushi takes to cure between layers and its requirement for humidity, makes me think I'd be better off not trying to use urushi for my first project.
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Post by tensho on Nov 26, 2019 3:53:06 GMT
It's personal preference. There's no correct color scheme to have. I have seen some pretty "blinged" out edo period koshirae(most likely from merchants) you usually have two thickness of seppa. The thicker one goes nearest the habaki, and the thinner one goes against the Fuchi.
As far as urushi lacquer goes I have no say. I hear special care is needed when using it. I believe it's basically equivalent to poison oak/ivy and some people get a pretty severe reaction from using it. Also, it's very expensive at least in the u.s.
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Post by hyakkihei on Nov 26, 2019 7:58:05 GMT
I don't live in the US, but I actually read it's on a banned import list for the US because of it's relation to poison ivy, yeah. But the more I read about it's usage, the more it sounds like something I might try one day after I finish this project, rather than use it for this one.
When you say thickness of seppa, are you talking about the thickness of the material, or diameter?
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Post by tensho on Nov 26, 2019 15:28:43 GMT
Thickness of material. But, I wouldn't worry to much about it. If you have two seppa that fit perfectly to your tsuba just go with them.
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Post by hyakkihei on Mar 4, 2023 6:34:24 GMT
It has been quite literally over 3 years since my last post about this sword. As I was gearing up to obtain materials for the tsuka and saya, COVID hit, and I was suddenly unable to import anything from Japan. I've since worked on the sword some more, got a new Fuchi, a Kashira and a nice looking menuki. The japanese site I wanted to use to buy the wood from, however, no longer stocks the wood, so I wasn't able to buy that. Instead I bought a prefab wooden tsuka online to modify for the wakizashi ( I'll most likely make my own later at some point, but for now this worked for the experience ). I also bought samegawa to do a full wrap, and synthetic silk ito ( once again, when I make one from scratch, I'll get either cotton or actual silk ). And went about my attempt at making a tsuka. I gotta say, it was pretty difficult. I got the samegawa cut to size, and wrapped around the wooden handle that I had shaved down, but every time I wetted it to wrap around it and tie it with rope, it would shift slightly resulting in the emperor node not being entirely centered, when I fixed it, and then wetted it again to glue it down, it ended up shifting slightly again, but since it was now glued in, it was permament.
I'll have to figure out how to do that better next time. Next up was the ito wrap. I found it very difficult to keep the ito tight as I wrapped it around, and while I had all the intentions of using hishigami at first, it proved too difficult for me to manage to get them in while also wrapping the tsuka, so I sadly gave up on that. I'll have to practice that more next time. The pattern itself went relatively fine, went over the Menuki fine, but I couldn't get the multiple passes of ito through the shitodome on the Kashira, no matter what I tried, so in the end I had to take out the shitodome to make it fit, again, something I'll have to work on for next time. The knot at the end was... difficult? At some point I pulled too hard and there's too much of an opening on one side now, but all in all I'm not too disappointed by it. However after only a few day the ito already started feeling a bit loose-ish, because I wasn't able to keep it tight enough while doing the wrap. I looked online, among places this forum, to see that some people would use a varnish lacquer to lightly soak into the ito wrap to make it more stiff and tight, and that worked really well.
I have not started on making a saya yet, because I wasn't able to get the wood for that either, so instead I gave measurements to someone to make one for me, for now. I still plan to eventually make one myself as well.
I looked up another togishi here to see if I could possibly have the sword polished, but again, huge investment, so I might not end up doing so, or at least not until much later. I do not intend to work on the blade myself, since I don't want to make it worse than it is.
Sorry for the extremely long post! Now here's a bunch of photos.
menuki Tsuka before i shaped it down with the new fuchi and kashira
After shaping down, with the samegawa glued on and fuchi and kashira fitted Ito wrap, after I used the lacquer ( for the second and third pictures ) bunch of different angles and detail shots And the saya I had made, and it hanging above my bed.
If you guys have any comments on stuff I might've missed that I should do better next time, please let me know! I definitely know I can do better, and intend to do so next time I attempt the tsuka and try my hand at the saya.
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Post by larason2 on Mar 4, 2023 21:55:39 GMT
I think you've done quite well. One thing I would have done differently is cut the ray skin samegawa asymmetrically, so that the join line isn't visible. I would also use some sandpaper and/or a fine chisel to shape the tsuka a bit more - make a more natural curve for the hand, make it so that there isn't a gap between ito and the kashira, remove that step between the fuchi and the rest of the tsuka, and remove some wood from where the node and the knots go so the form is more symmetrical. Go slow with wood removal and go carefully, it's much easier to take more wood of than to add some more material! You did pretty well on the end knot, it's just pulled a bit too far toward the kashira. A little bit of hide glue or pine resin on the top and bottom of the tsuka helps keep wraps you've already done in place.
Personally I would at least use some bone to take the active rust off the blade. It's time consuming, but it's good conservatorial practice, that's what they do on Tsubas. You can get some cow or pig bones from a butchers shop, just lightly boil them for like 5 minutes in water with a small amount of dish soap in it, then scrape off all the tissue, then wash again with dish soap to get the grease off. Once you get the orange rust off, lubricate it with sword oil, and at least it won't get any worse. You can also get a 200 grit polishing stick like a gesswein moldmaker and use it in a circular motion, lubricated with mineral oil just on the spots with red rust. It will at least look somewhat respectable, and you don't really remove much material by doing this. The rest of the sword will retain its original polish. The deep pits of rust probably rule out being able to bring this sword back to it's former glory without ruining the geometry. Just don't touch the nakago!
This is a cool project, makes me want to do something along these lines, and you've done well by this sword! This kind of project would be a good one to learn togishi on. You just have to err on the side of conservatism!
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Post by hyakkihei on Mar 5, 2023 3:00:58 GMT
I think you've done quite well. One thing I would have done differently is cut the ray skin samegawa asymmetrically, so that the join line isn't visible. I would also use some sandpaper and/or a fine chisel to shape the tsuka a bit more - make a more natural curve for the hand, make it so that there isn't a gap between ito and the kashira, remove that step between the fuchi and the rest of the tsuka, and remove some wood from where the node and the knots go so the form is more symmetrical. Go slow with wood removal and go carefully, it's much easier to take more wood of than to add some more material! You did pretty well on the end knot, it's just pulled a bit too far toward the kashira. A little bit of hide glue or pine resin on the top and bottom of the tsuka helps keep wraps you've already done in place. Personally I would at least use some bone to take the active rust off the blade. It's time consuming, but it's good conservatorial practice, that's what they do on Tsubas. You can get some cow or pig bones from a butchers shop, just lightly boil them for like 5 minutes in water with a small amount of dish soap in it, then scrape off all the tissue, then wash again with dish soap to get the grease off. Once you get the orange rust off, lubricate it with sword oil, and at least it won't get any worse. You can also get a 200 grit polishing stick like a gesswein moldmaker and use it in a circular motion, lubricated with mineral oil just on the spots with red rust. It will at least look somewhat respectable, and you don't really remove much material by doing this. The rest of the sword will retain its original polish. The deep pits of rust probably rule out being able to bring this sword back to it's former glory without ruining the geometry. Just don't touch the nakago! This is a cool project, makes me want to do something along these lines, and you've done well by this sword! This kind of project would be a good one to learn togishi on. You just have to err on the side of conservatism! I looked into the samegawa thing, and it seemed to be an aethestic choice between having the seam visible and having it on the side where you wouldn't be able to see it, however my samegawa wasn't big enough to cut it with the seam on the side so the choice was already made for me, next time I'll have to order a much larger samegawa so that I can do that! I don't have any pictures of the wooden handle before I put the samegawa on, but I did actually do all the things you suggested before putting the samegawa on, I shaped the handle down a lot more, put in a step where the fuchi is on the handle, sanded it all down a lot more so that after the samegawa and ito wrap came on, they would be more or less at the same height as the fuchi, and I removed a lot of material at the end so that the kashira would actually fit over the butt of the handle and again filed down the material there to make some room for the knot and node. However I probably didn't remove enough, and I definitely didn't get the natural curve I wanted from the handle, that's absolutely correct, I need to pay extra attention to that next time! thank you. And yes, like I said with the knot, at some point while I was doing the knot, I pulled it too tight, and it didn't look right anymore, that's probably one of my biggest regrets about the tsuka, the other side went better, but I think I might be able to do this better next time. I know the blade of the wakizashi looks bad, and trust me, it is, but there's actually no longer any active rust on there, the discoloration remained, but there's no actual rust. Despite my grandfather never having oiled the sword, I don't think the rust has ever gotten worse. I did however check to see if there was any actual rust on there ( other than the nakago of course, and naturally I didn't touch that part ) and there wasn't, and since I owned the sword, I've made sure to have it oiled with mineral oil to prevent any future rust formation. I fear that if a togishi were to work on this, a lot of material would have to be removed, but that's a problem for future me.
Anyways, thank you very much for your criticism and suggestions!
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 367
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Post by steveboy on Mar 5, 2023 3:56:54 GMT
Considering that so many aspects of this project were firsts for you, I think you've done a creditable job. I doubt that most people coming into this cold would have ended up with something looking this good. And look at what you've learned for the next time!
A few suggestions that I hope are helpful, mostly about the tsukamaki:
Pulling tightly and keeping the ito taut as you go is only one of the things that keeps it tight. After every set of folds on both sides, it's a good idea to clamp just above them (which is best to do anyhow) and use a tool to tamp & smooth them. The little brass hammer that comes with cleaning kits is good for this. There are YouTube videos showing this, but basically you should hammer the folds flat, shape the diamonds, and smooth the fit where the wrap edges run alongside each other. You want it tight against the top & bottom of the tsuka without any ridges, and seeming to form one smooth fabric shape as best it can.
Besides giving the diamonds a better shape and saving you some work on the final passes, the flattening and smoothing releases a little bit of slack, letting the dangling ito ends be pulled even tighter. Otherwise, this is some of what is loose when the work is finished. It also slims the tsuka profile, so that the folds seem to lie flatter against the shape rather than sticking out. If they're good, tight, well-shaped folds, you can really mash the heck out of 'em.
Also, be sure the grain on the same is aligned so that the ito catches when pulled toward the kashira end. It's surprisingly easy not to do this, and makes a big difference in the ito's bind to the tsuka.
If you aren't going to use hishigami -- and, brother, I can sympathize -- two brushed coats of polyrethane are enormously helpful in leting the wrap keep a good tight shape. Is it a cheat? Who cares? Just remember that it will darken your ito a shade or two.
Finally, I think that menuki is really great, and it's a shame its beauty is hidden by the folds. I think it could have been placed so that the middle was the primary part beneath a diamond, and the ends were tucked just under the corners of diamonds. The placement would be easier if the ito was tighter because it would also be a tad thinner. There's a little bit of wriggle room on where you can place it, and I'd try to show it off to full effect.
I think you have a great attitude about regarding your dissatisfactions as learning opportunities, but I also think you're a bit hard on yourself. If you look at before and after pictures on this project, it's a wonderful improvement. I was really glad to read about it.
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Post by hyakkihei on Mar 5, 2023 4:22:00 GMT
Thank you steveboy! I tried to mash the ito folds as I went along, since that's what I'd seen in videos on how to wrap, but I didn't have a good way to clamp the ito, and I constantly felt like I didn't have enough hands to do this, so in the end the ito felt a bit looser after a few days. I made extra sure the samegawa was properly alligned! And man, that does help a LOT, even if the ito felt a bit loose, it was never at risk of slipping off, because the samegawa kept it in place perfectly. And I did end up using the polyurethane trick, I sprayed some into a cup and gently soaked some into the ito with a brush, so that I wouldn't have it all over the samegawa and the fuchigashira/menuki, it did darken the ito a bit, but after 3 days the ito was much more stiff and it hasn't had an issue of looseness since. The hishigami though... I actually want to try this again next time, but it's so damn hard! I'm not entirely sure what I can do about the mekugi, though, the holes in the nakago are fixed spots, and even with the seppa there, I don't have a lot of option on where I have to put the mekugi.. oh wait, I think you mean menuki? Yes, I agree, it's a very beatiful menuki, and most of it is hidden behind the wrap. I've since seen some ito wraps where the menuki is partially on top of the ito wrap by only being below one side of the ito wrap while the other twist is below the menuki itself, I'll have to look more into this, because I agree that being able to show it off more would be much better, since it's very pretty. Thank you very much for your kind words!
EDIT: I still have a little bit of the samegawa left, not enough for another tsuka, but I've read you can use samegawa as a decorative part for the saya, I might actually hold on to it for if/when I make my own saya and inlay it there!
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 367
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Post by steveboy on Mar 5, 2023 8:17:09 GMT
Sorry, yes, I meant the menuki. I didn't realize when I took up this art that it came with a free language course.
Re the samegawa, I also think it's good to keep scraps in case you want to test a finish, dye, or stain at some point.
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Post by hyakkihei on Mar 5, 2023 9:18:07 GMT
Sorry, yes, I meant the menuki. I didn't realize when I took up this art that it came with a free language course. Re the samegawa, I also think it's good to keep scraps in case you want to test a finish, dye, or stain at some point. I was trying to look up on how to dye or stain samegawa, but I just couldn't find anything conclusive I could follow, do you perhaps have any more information regarding this you can share? I did like the idea of keeping a red/black theme with my wakizashi, so I had considered staining/dying the samegawa black, I would definitely be interested in trying this out next time. Do you dye/stain it before applying it to the handle, or after?
I don't know if soaking it in water after dyeing/staining is an issue after all.
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 367
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Post by steveboy on Mar 5, 2023 18:05:39 GMT
Sorry, yes, I meant the menuki. I didn't realize when I took up this art that it came with a free language course. Re the samegawa, I also think it's good to keep scraps in case you want to test a finish, dye, or stain at some point. I was trying to look up on how to dye or stain samegawa, but I just couldn't find anything conclusive I could follow, do you perhaps have any more information regarding this you can share? I did like the idea of keeping a red/black theme with my wakizashi, so I had considered staining/dying the samegawa black, I would definitely be interested in trying this out next time. Do you dye/stain it before applying it to the handle, or after?
I don't know if soaking it in water after dyeing/staining is an issue after all.
I have only painted them, haven't used a stain or dye on one. Painting is pretty simple, just brush on and rag-wipe off. The paint wipes off of the nodules and stays in the recesses, so you can either have a subtle antiquing effect with yellows or browns, or a dramatic contrast with stronger & more opaque colors. Here's a pretty basic walkthrough video.
I remember running across some threads on this forum discussing dyes, it shouldn't be too hard to search them out. I did bookmark a recommended dye source, if that's useful.
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eastman
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Post by eastman on Mar 5, 2023 18:12:18 GMT
Has anyone tried using leather dye or leather stain on samegawa? That would give a lot of options for color and intensity. I don't have any samegawa scraps to test it on.
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Post by hyakkihei on Mar 5, 2023 18:52:21 GMT
I was trying to look up on how to dye or stain samegawa, but I just couldn't find anything conclusive I could follow, do you perhaps have any more information regarding this you can share? I did like the idea of keeping a red/black theme with my wakizashi, so I had considered staining/dying the samegawa black, I would definitely be interested in trying this out next time. Do you dye/stain it before applying it to the handle, or after?
I don't know if soaking it in water after dyeing/staining is an issue after all.
I have only painted them, haven't used a stain or dye on one. Painting is pretty simple, just brush on and rag-wipe off. The paint wipes off of the nodules and stays in the recesses, so you can either have a subtle antiquing effect with yellows or browns, or a dramatic contrast with stronger & more opaque colors. Here's a pretty basic walkthrough video.
I remember running across some threads on this forum discussing dyes, it shouldn't be too hard to search them out. I did bookmark a recommended dye source, if that's useful. I love the amount of detail this adds to the samegawa
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 367
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Post by steveboy on Mar 5, 2023 19:32:30 GMT
I have only painted them, haven't used a stain or dye on one. Painting is pretty simple, just brush on and rag-wipe off. The paint wipes off of the nodules and stays in the recesses, so you can either have a subtle antiquing effect with yellows or browns, or a dramatic contrast with stronger & more opaque colors. Here's a pretty basic walkthrough video.
I remember running across some threads on this forum discussing dyes, it shouldn't be too hard to search them out. I did bookmark a recommended dye source, if that's useful. I love the amount of detail this adds to the samegawa Totally agree! I've taken to routinely antiqueing even fake samegawa just because of the texture it adds, if I don't color them outright. I do think a little goes a long way with coloring, though, and it's not hard to make the whole thing look way more gift-shoppy than one would like.
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Post by hyakkihei on Jul 13, 2023 12:48:25 GMT
Not related to this sword project, but I obtained a type 98 gunto recently. The saya is terribly rusted, currently looking into replacing it, since I'm not sure how to fix that. But the tsuka had the ito all but completely destroyed and missing, only leaving the end knot. So I had a chance to try my hand again at tsukamaki. I tried to improve on all the things I felt were lacking last time. I got proper silk ito instead of synthetic silk ito, I got the right kind of kozo paper to make the hishigami out of, got a clamp to hold the wraps to take breaks/hold the ito.
I used a tutorial by cottontails to make the hishigami, his method was very helpful in making hishigami
that were thicker at the tip. And with the actual silk ito I was able to really pull hard and get everything tight, also made sure to tamp/burnish the folds to make everything as tight as possible. Also to my surprise, adding hishigami actually made tsukamaki easier, as it allowed the triangles to
keep their shape more easily, allowing me to pull much harder to keep it all tight. I also found how to do the end knot by inspecting the remains of the end knot and finding a pdf
of the art of tsukamaki which detailed the end knot for gunto tsuka in a very low quality image,
but it was enough to make it work. It was still nerve wracking doing the final parts and cutting and tucking the ito, because you can't
go back at that point. but I'm actually very pleased with the result, I feel like I did better than last time. These pictures
are from before I put a coat of varnish on the ito ( it's currently still curing ) it all felt pretty tight and nothing got loose, but I just wanted to get that guarantee.
pics below: How I got the sword and the state of the tsuka and pic below is how I have it now. The end knot is slightly out of line at the bottom in this picture, but I actually fixed that before I applied the lacquer. I'm really happy how it turned out.
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Post by larason2 on Jul 13, 2023 13:02:06 GMT
Nice work! You did well by that old tsuka.
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