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Post by tsmspace on Oct 16, 2019 5:35:39 GMT
This video is a short tour of my sword collection, and some discussion on topics that interest me.
I am looking for further discussion because I don't know where to find if various ideas have been presented, actually, research on historical relics is not very useful, overall, as the information is largely speculative and incomplete. (it's not like ancient swords came with journals).
mostly, learning about swords is up to the imagination,, and then there is a generally accepted set of imaginable scenarios that apply to different sword cultures,, until a much more recent set of eras. So, swords like a more modern rapier are very well understood, and when a sword is a real weapon vs. some form of decoration or fashion or play sword is also very well understood. Some extremely rusted "viking sword" literally has no information, and the information used to deduce the utility of the sword comes from lore that is also debate-able. In other words,, it IS possible, that when something from ancient egypt, or ancient Europe, is discovered, it is actually possible that it is STILL a re-creation for display, and not a true tool. It is perfectly imaginable that someone made a mantle-piece that was not functional, and it lasted for long enough to be discovered and dated. Because of this, swords of ancient times may have varied in ways that are not represented by all of the various collections, it is imaginable that so many types of metal implement existed that we won't know about.
My swords that I made are not meant to be real swords, they are just meant to be dummy weights or otherwise party favors. I like them but was not intent to make weapons, I was instead hoping to make shaped training weights, or just making something that seemed like the materials I used would still make something that could be wielded. (the shapes are largely based simply on getting the most stability out of the materials I used).
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Post by MOK on Oct 16, 2019 18:52:41 GMT
I honestly think the thing you're going for is maces rather than swords. Which is fine! Maces are cool, and we like to discuss them also. Swords in museums come from all sorts of sources, including contexts like lost military weapon shipments or battlefield mass burials that really rather rule out them being toys or decorative items. Some are found broken in refuse heaps, some lost or discarded on the march, others enshrined inside cathedral walls. We actually have a fairly solid understanding of what real swords used in real warfare and self defense were like, on the whole, and how they differ from ceremonial, recreational and/or decorative "Sword-Like Objects" (both modern and historical). It's true that no actual user manuals for swords, or other weapons, are known to survive from Europe before the late 13th Century, but quite a lot can still be gleamed from other period sources like military guides, records and requirements, pictorial representations (always to be taken with a full shaker of salt) and detailed analysis of the surviving items themselves as well as the remains of their victims; some more can be extrapolated from later sources, and just the ever important laws of physics and anatomy (since they're universal and constant on the time scales we're dealing with, here). We don't know everything, but we do know quite a bit and learn more every day. There's a whole body of literature on historical swords and their likely uses. The usual starting point for Medieval arms is, well, almost anything by Ewart Oakeshott - like all academics, his work has been built and improved upon since, but he's a really fundamental figure in bringing us out of the dark ages of Victorian whimsy (even if it did take a hundred years). The most accessible source at the moment are probably YouTube channels like Matt Easton's "scholagladiatoria" (he has several good videos related to why swords are the way they are and how it relates to body mechanics), Leo Todeschini's "Tod's Workshop", Roland Warzecha, Metatron, LindyBeige, Skallagrim, London Longsword Academy, Academy of Historical Fencing, anything featuring Tobias Capwell... Nobody ever agrees with everything any of them say, of course, but that's only natural and healthy and if we did there'd be no need at all for research and discussion so really it's all for the better!
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Post by tsmspace on Oct 25, 2019 3:51:50 GMT
I honestly think the thing you're going for is maces rather than swords. Which is fine! Maces are cool, and we like to discuss them also. Swords in museums come from all sorts of sources, including contexts like lost military weapon shipments or battlefield mass burials that really rather rule out them being toys or decorative items. Some are found broken in refuse heaps, some lost or discarded on the march, others enshrined inside cathedral walls. We actually have a fairly solid understanding of what real swords used in real warfare and self defense were like, on the whole, and how they differ from ceremonial, recreational and/or decorative "Sword-Like Objects" (both modern and historical). It's true that no actual user manuals for swords, or other weapons, are known to survive from Europe before the late 13th Century, but quite a lot can still be gleamed from other period sources like military guides, records and requirements, pictorial representations (always to be taken with a full shaker of salt) and detailed analysis of the surviving items themselves as well as the remains of their victims; some more can be extrapolated from later sources, and just the ever important laws of physics and anatomy (since they're universal and constant on the time scales we're dealing with, here). We don't know everything, but we do know quite a bit and learn more every day. There's a whole body of literature on historical swords and their likely uses. The usual starting point for Medieval arms is, well, almost anything by Ewart Oakeshott - like all academics, his work has been built and improved upon since, but he's a really fundamental figure in bringing us out of the dark ages of Victorian whimsy (even if it did take a hundred years). The most accessible source at the moment are probably YouTube channels like Matt Easton's "scholagladiatoria" (he has several good videos related to why swords are the way they are and how it relates to body mechanics), Leo Todeschini's "Tod's Workshop", Roland Warzecha, Metatron, LindyBeige, Skallagrim, London Longsword Academy, Academy of Historical Fencing, anything featuring Tobias Capwell... Nobody ever agrees with everything any of them say, of course, but that's only natural and healthy and if we did there'd be no need at all for research and discussion so really it's all for the better! well, i hear you, but there are some things that I could say to better elaborate. but it's definitely swords I'm thinking about. I also like maces and axes, and feel it is a maturity to choose an axe, because a sword is really not for swinging. A sword is MOSTLY for poking, even though it feels much more powerful to swing it, the energy is more focused in a poke, and this higher concentration of force is more damaging, even though it feels like it would be more damaging to swing it, because a swing has more total energy than a poke. (so, fencing) , but, there are other things that someone might try to do with something shaped like a sword. For example, poke and pry and structures, lever open doors, poke under rocks to lever them up a little for better grabbing,,,, basically any use one might imagine a prybar might also work with a sword assuming the sword can survive the abuse. A major argument is that , well, there are specialized tools for this sort of activity,,, but it's fairly common (or essential) to carry as few tools as possible to achieve the goal. So, it's imaginable that a group, army, or individual might try and make use of their swords when possible instead of trying to have enough prybars to be available on short notice. Especially when it's an individual who will carry something with them into the woods, or on a trip, that will be useful often but also work when they need it most, (ahh,,, tigers!) ..... A thick heavy sword would do a lot that someone might try to do besides a few killing motions in a battle. If the sword were too delicate, you would only want to use it at the very last moment, so that it will be sharp and in-tact. But if it will be sharp enough to poke, (easiest part to sharpen) and also useful the rest of the time, (and besides, in battle is the time when you probably will not use the sword, you will have spears, bows, artillary, etc.,,, you might only take the sword out in desperation) ,,,, ......... swords are also useful in policing, when you don't even need spears and such, because you will mostly encounter un-armed peasants.
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Post by MOK on Oct 25, 2019 11:35:41 GMT
But the thing is that real swords are not thick and heavy. It would be counterproductive to their use as sharp weapons.
The vast majority of swords are cut-and-thrust designs, capable of both cutting with the edge and thrusting with the point. Even extreme anomalies like some anti-armour estocs, heavy thrusting swords built for maximal rigidity at the cost of giving up all cutting ability, are never more than maybe 10mm thick at the base (and square or triangular in cross-section, more like giant awls or pointed bar maces than regular swords).
The closest historical thing to what you're suggesting would be machetes, kukris, "cabbage cutters" and the like, chopping blades designed as much for field work like clearing brush and undergrowth as for fighting. All of them still make really bad prybars because they're not nearly rigid enough (well, a kukri actually might be), and because they're sharp - that's one thing you want in a sword, or any cutting tool or weapon, but absolutely not in a prybar!
Good cutting tools (and weapons) are just inherently not good prying tools; the exact same things that make them good for perforating things make them bad for prying. Ask any knife manufacturer.
PS. Up until modern times and the rise of firearms, most armies actually had weapons far more common and far better for use as last ditch prybars or levers: spears! And if they really needed to move something too heavy for six-to-eight-foot wooden staves, that's what actual tools are for.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 25, 2019 17:30:29 GMT
The only edged weapon I can think of that could remotely be used as a pry bar are some modern bayonets and some knives with thick spines and their use was restricted to prying the wooden lid from a wooden packing case when nothing else is around, and then only as a field expediency. I wouldn’t even use my 3/8” spined kukri with its full tang for that. In fact I have only one edged weapon that I would even consider for such abuse and that is my spiked tomahawk. In fact I have although I have a pry bar. Those occasions were in the garden for rocks and roots because of the leverage the 30” haft offers.
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Post by howler on Oct 25, 2019 19:53:04 GMT
There are some knives advertised as survival/emergency/extraction which are supposedly designed to take more abuse, so as to either get you into/out of civilization in a 24-48 hour time frame. Some soldiers have them for when a proper tool isn't available. They don't slice great but have sturdy tips and thicker spines and grinds so as to afford some chopping, prying, baton, digging. Some all steel axes and designs like the Ontario Spax also come to mind, but bush craft and optimal fighting examples they surely are not. I would imagine some thick machete/kukri could do the job if needed, but your going to have to sharpen back up at the end of the day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 23:03:47 GMT
I don't mind that you want an unconventional sword. He'll, I want one too. But...
You don't seem like you know what a sword is supposed to be. Sorry for finally being on this side of the fence, but a sword is nothing like they are on tv and video games. Which is why I also want a crowbar of a sword. But still, a sword is a sword. Nobody asks for a sledge hammer when asking about boat paddles. 😂
But still. I too would love a weapon that can take anything and handle it forever
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 26, 2019 0:53:07 GMT
Unobtainium....
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Post by paulmuaddib on Oct 26, 2019 1:32:24 GMT
I don't mind that you want an unconventional sword. He'll, I want one too. But... You don't seem like you know what a sword is supposed to be. Sorry for finally being on this side of the fence, but a sword is nothing like they are on tv and video games. Which is why I also want a crowbar of a sword. But still, a sword is a sword. Nobody asks for a sledge hammer when asking about boat paddles. 😂 But still. I too would love a weapon that can take anything and handle it forever FINALLY!
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Post by tsmspace on Oct 26, 2019 3:26:38 GMT
But the thing is that real swords are not thick and heavy. It would be counterproductive to their use as sharp weapons. The vast majority of swords are cut-and-thrust designs, capable of both cutting with the edge and thrusting with the point. Even extreme anomalies like some anti-armour estocs, heavy thrusting swords built for maximal rigidity at the cost of giving up all cutting ability, are never more than maybe 10mm thick at the base (and square or triangular in cross-section, more like giant awls or pointed bar maces than regular swords). The closest historical thing to what you're suggesting would be machetes, kukris, "cabbage cutters" and the like, chopping blades designed as much for field work like clearing brush and undergrowth as for fighting. All of them still make really bad prybars because they're not nearly rigid enough (well, a kukri actually might be), and because they're sharp - that's one thing you want in a sword, or any cutting tool or weapon, but absolutely not in a prybar! Good cutting tools (and weapons) are just inherently not good prying tools; the exact same things that make them good for perforating things make them bad for prying. Ask any knife manufacturer. PS. Up until modern times and the rise of firearms, most armies actually had weapons far more common and far better for use as last ditch prybars or levers: spears! And if they really needed to move something too heavy for six-to-eight-foot wooden staves, that's what actual tools are for. I have considered a spear before, and if what I'm trying to do is learn simple mechanics that tools like that would teach, a spear is probably essential,,, but a spear is huge to have, much too big to use in a bedroom or anything. ( I mean I have a box-cutter and small prybar, and some wooden handles and metal handles, just like everyone,,, very often I can use the box-cutter to push in, then some other small tool can fit enough to start prying). a spear, though, is certainly one of the energy shapes that made us what we are, and should probably be considered an essential experience if handling traditional or ancient artifact shapes in order to understand their logic and engineering.
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Post by tsmspace on Oct 26, 2019 3:30:30 GMT
I don't mind that you want an unconventional sword. He'll, I want one too. But... You don't seem like you know what a sword is supposed to be. Sorry for finally being on this side of the fence, but a sword is nothing like they are on tv and video games. Which is why I also want a crowbar of a sword. But still, a sword is a sword. Nobody asks for a sledge hammer when asking about boat paddles. 😂 But still. I too would love a weapon that can take anything and handle it forever FINALLY! so you could really argue that that's exactly why I want it. Because I WILL know things after. One thing is,, there aren't really that many times I might need to cut with a sword. I could buy some materials to cut, but mostly if I need to cut a box-cutter is the best choice. of course, in battle, I probably want some kind of rifle. what I CAN do, is try to bash on garbage, lots of which is metal appliances, and see what I can do there. also, I can do weightlifting of unusual shapes, like swords or big balls or whatever else people dream up. For example, if I want to do challenging stretches, I might not want a hammer, I might want it the shape of a sword, and heavy like a fat prybar. (prybars, of course, are also very nice)
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