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Post by markus313 on Oct 12, 2019 22:05:46 GMT
For back-edge cuts from larger measure, a short back-edge is sufficient. Cutting/slicing the opponent's rear in the infight comes to mind. May have occurred in a charge. And having a heavy blade, perhaps, while avoiding thickness.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 12, 2019 22:37:05 GMT
I believe as a whole backswords are lighter than broadswords. The taper towards the edge can be longer making for a more acute angle at the cutting edge. The sharpened false edge area is normally sufficient for a backhand cut. Having a double edge according to some accounts I’ve read makes it easier to withdraw the sword after a thrust. Other than that I see little advantage to a broad sword when a basket hilt is used. On a medieval sword it could give the equivalent of a spare edge.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 12, 2019 22:47:37 GMT
Two edges = double lifetime of one edge... Less time forging, less ressources... Turn around and remount?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 4:00:46 GMT
It also helps with penetration
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Oct 13, 2019 9:34:22 GMT
Imagine getting in a clinch in a melee. A sharpened forte on your false edge can be used to draw cut your enemy's hamstrings.
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Post by leviathansteak on Oct 13, 2019 10:44:51 GMT
Its interesting that Capo Ferro says the following in his rapier treatise regarding edges: "I divide only the debole into the true and false edges, and not the forte, because the consideration does not occur that is made in the forte, which serves no other purpose than to parry, and were it without edge, and dulled, it would not be at all amiss, in place of point in the forte and the hilt, not only for gripping the sword, but also for covering oneself and chiefly the head in striking"
Not that i agree however, as i often employ slices at close range. There's not as much opportunity to use the false edge at the forte though. Especially with a complex hilt.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2019 12:55:17 GMT
Imagine getting in a clinch in a melee. A sharpened forte on your false edge can be used to draw cut your enemy's hamstrings. Forte is the part of the blade closer to your hand. Unless you've clinched their legs, you'll have a far easier time hamstringing someone with the foible.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Oct 13, 2019 13:23:38 GMT
I disagree.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2019 13:24:51 GMT
Might be you have longer arms than mine, I guess?
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Oct 13, 2019 13:32:46 GMT
I think it would be very easy to reach the back of someone's thigh with a surface extending 12" past your fist from a standing grapple. You get your pulling leverage with the forte, not the fouble, so if you couldn't reach the thigh you could go for any other part of them such as the back of the neck or arm for a very powerful draw cut, probably with a sawing motion.
It's just speculation on my part as to whether Scots did this, but it's a practical use for a sharpened back edge all the way down to the hilt. The only practical use I can think of, really, because the forte edge is irrelevant to thrusting, only the foible of the false edge would be used for slashing at measure, and you can't flip a basket hilt around to use the false edge as a fresh true edge.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 13, 2019 17:22:03 GMT
My back sword has a 32” blade of which 22” of the true edge is sharpened and 11½” of the false edge is sharpened. I feel that makes it as effective as a broad sword, save the fact that a broad sword mostly likely would be heavier giving a more decisive blow. Mine is probably a tad faster.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 13, 2019 22:28:53 GMT
Imagine getting in a clinch in a melee. A sharpened forte on your false edge can be used to draw cut your enemy's hamstrings. I mean, Ive been closed in on a lot and both done constraining and been constrained, and the vast majority of the time I am either stabbed or cut to the face, and I either in turn do the stabbing or cutting to the neck or face. I haven't ever been able to work a blade down to the back of the thigh, just due to the fact that it's way quicker to constrain and use the few half seconds you have to get a good strike in instead of worrying about a strike that can really have a lot of its force taken out with either thicker clothing or moving forward. And with that, assuming we both have kilts and socks on, would it be harder or easier to stop someone's hand if they are 2 feet away or right next to your thigh? It's a quicker motion to use the last third or quarter than to move all the way down to use the first third, and of course a faster movement means a faster recovery, which means more room to correct an error and account for an opponents movement. It's why you don't see shoulder cuts in rapier even though they can cut with them. That huge cut, even though far more martially valid than a slip cut, gives an opponent far more time to decide what to do. Moving your broadsword in a small motion than can be corrected and redirected with a tiny wrist movement to another attack and location is a much safer movement than bend all the way down to really get a good forceful draw with the forte (and of course the rest of the blade, but in reality the cutting portion really doesn't lie that far down the blade).
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 13, 2019 22:35:19 GMT
So wouldnt the backsword with its 3-4" of back edge be able to do anything the double edged broadsword could? The idea of being able to flip the blade and remount it makes sense though. I think it would be interesting to see a case study on this, regarding the amount of edge grinding on the back vs front edges. I know (and have seen) on period swords grinding the front edge down is a common operation (and one I recently performed on my fencing sabre) to remove edge damage, but I've never seen flipping a basket hilt blade around to swap the edges mentioned.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 13, 2019 22:43:32 GMT
The sharpened foible to me, aside from of course aiding in penetration (especially on spear tips, though important to note the presence of a false edge grind does not always mean it's sharp) helps in cutting during a circular parry (imagine the opponent cutting to the leg, slip the leg and parry down spine towards, the last 3rd or quarter being sharp attended towards their wrist or arm) and on cuts from down to up diagonal, such as cut No. 3, which can be performed with a more curved sword in the manner as follows; performing the cut, and as your knuckles move past your leg you flip the sword over, hitting the opponent with the false edge.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 13, 2019 23:34:23 GMT
Am a little lost there. When performing, say #1 cut, and my blade passes the opponent I find it faster to cut back hand with #4 with the false edge than to flip the sword over and use the true edge. The cut is not as powerful but faster.
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Post by MOK on Oct 13, 2019 23:51:04 GMT
I think it would be very easy to reach the back of someone's thigh with a surface extending 12" past your fist from a standing grapple. You get your pulling leverage with the forte, not the fouble, so if you couldn't reach the thigh you could go for any other part of them such as the back of the neck or arm for a very powerful draw cut, probably with a sawing motion. I mean, sure, simply reaching down to the thigh of someone chest-to-chest with you is not a problem, as such, but it seems awfully tricky to do against an actively resisting opponent unless I was already controlling both their arms with my left, leaving my right arm completely free, and in that case I might as well be pummeling their skull in. I don't think you can actually generate enough force this way to do anything against bony targets like the back of the head or neck, either, it would of course be painful but any meaningful damage would be limited to soft tissue so better used against large muscles and tendons (or major blood vessels, if you can get at them this way). If you just happen to find yourself in a standing grapple with your sword already behind them and your swordarm otherwise free, of course you might as well take the opportunity for a slice, but it just seems like a very niche-of-a-niche kind of situational thing that only arises when both fighters have already screwed up in a very specific way, you know?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 13, 2019 23:56:55 GMT
Am a little lost there. When performing, say #1 cut, and my blade passes the opponent I find it faster to cut back hand with #4 with the false edge than to flip the sword over and use the true edge. The cut is not as powerful but faster. Let me explain a little more. On a cut number three the cut comes from the left to right, upwards diagonally, with the knuckles up. To use the false edge with this cut, and really only viable on decently curved swords you flip the hand over so the knuckles come from being up towards the sky, to the back of the hand being up towards the sky. This flips the edge over and depending on range, either puts the point into the wrist or pushes the back edge into the opponents wrist or forearm (the target in a number 3). I actually have funnily enough found the opposite in my training regarding cutting from #1 to #4, I wonder what we are doing different in regards to movement. Your Princess of Wales sabre may be able to do the cut number 3 true to false edge transition, or the klewang. Whichever is more curved.
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Post by pgandy on Oct 14, 2019 0:54:28 GMT
I wasn’t talking about a true #4. I was talking about with knuckles down going diagonally upwards using the false edge as opposed to flipping the blade over and cutting with the true edge. I’ll admit #3&4s are more effective with the true edge of a curved blade. I fail to see the difference with a straight blade other than delivering more power with the true edge.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Oct 14, 2019 4:53:04 GMT
I think it would be very easy to reach the back of someone's thigh with a surface extending 12" past your fist from a standing grapple. You get your pulling leverage with the forte, not the fouble, so if you couldn't reach the thigh you could go for any other part of them such as the back of the neck or arm for a very powerful draw cut, probably with a sawing motion. I mean, sure, simply reaching down to the thigh of someone chest-to-chest with you is not a problem, as such, but it seems awfully tricky to do against an actively resisting opponent unless I was already controlling both their arms with my left, leaving my right arm completely free, and in that case I might as well be pummeling their skull in. I don't think you can actually generate enough force this way to do anything against bony targets like the back of the head or neck, either, it would of course be painful but any meaningful damage would be limited to soft tissue so better used against large muscles and tendons (or major blood vessels, if you can get at them this way). If you just happen to find yourself in a standing grapple with your sword already behind them and your swordarm otherwise free, of course you might as well take the opportunity for a slice, but it just seems like a very niche-of-a-niche kind of situational thing that only arises when both fighters have already screwed up in a very specific way, you know? Yeah, it wouldn't be something to strive for. Attacking the head or throwing is better. Just imagine if someone gets an overhook hold on your sword arm (which is a commonbtechnique across many systems with a roof block entry) and tries to pin it down as they bearhug you. Your back edge forte could easily be the section of your blade most likely to be useful for a draw cut on their foream, if you are braced apart, or their leg, if you are pressed together. Again, I would expect this to not happen often and I wouldn't mind giving that ability up by using a single edged sword. But it's a way to use that section of the blade to mitigate a bad position. The only way, really.
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Post by leviathansteak on Oct 14, 2019 5:05:52 GMT
I guess in very particular circumstances, when doing a falso cut, it is possible that you may contact the target with more of the middle or COP of the blade.
If your false edge was only sharpened a few inches, you'd hit with an unsharpened portion and fail to cut the opponent. So in that situation a fully sharpened false edge would be useful
However, practically all false edge cuts that i deliver in sparring land near the tip or last 1/4 of the blade
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