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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 19:05:12 GMT
Thanks, I'm kind of getting fed up with the on-line toxicity in WMA in general. I understand passionate feelings, but at a minimum folks should be willing to cross swords and try things out before going off. Otherwise it makes this whole thing look like a bunch of loons screaming at each other. And it really isn't that way. In person, I have yet to run into people being jerks. And I've found that actually sparring is a great way to make friends.
For my I.33 group, our main goal is to drill as deep into the source as possible. That isn't for everyone. Many people just want to fight. But if you want to understand the text you have to work with it. And ultimately that means doing what they were doing or what they appear to be doing. It's been a very useful method for understanding the text. Borislav, for his part, gave up on the text and just yells at people not to use it. Which isn't very helpful ;-) It may ultimately come down to using different tools for different purposes.
For "viking" era combat, I've long recommended both Short and Roland's work. They come at the problem from opposite directions but, if you look beyond the methodology, they are coming to similar conclusions. Both have broken from the older idea of using centergrips face-first. Both are using edge strikes and focusing on a lot more shield work than had previously been done. Both are using more appropriate period weights for their gear. And if you think you won't get anything out of Roland's approach because he isn't hitting hard, you probably never met him and more importantly you're likely grossly exaggerating the amount of force needed to kill with a sword or axe.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 19:24:51 GMT
Imply me being a hater. All nice and well. The thing is these guys will only spar under their conditions. I.33 tactics and a lot of the German stuff (not necessarily Fiore) stands in direct opposition to what is known from England, and it can be argued that there are vast differences between tactical approaches even amongst German sources (Meyer isn’t Liechtenauer, for example – hell, even Meyer is too dangerous). I.33 and early German Longsword serves to downplay “common” fencing”. It may have been viewn by some as a viable way to overpower a “common” fencer quickly, someone who may have not been familiar with these source’s tactics (working forward from a bind by gaining blade control, Schildschlag etc.). They may as well have been used to trick young nobles into a mindset of “superiority”.
George Silver says S&B is the safest way to fight. Yet the way Roland and his guys interpret the sources (and again, I think I.33 gives flawed tactical advice to begin with, such as early German Longsword sources) makes it the most dangerous way to fight. Yet they claim they practice the most safe and dominant way to fight and out-rule any other approach by stating the “universalism” of their principles.
When you go to Roland’s meetings, there’s no sparring, as I understand it. The rules are set out pretty narrow. They have no heavy gear nor suitable equipment to fence without much protection. So there is no real contact, or someone would get injured. These guys are tricking themselves. I am not saying there is nothing to learn from that approach. I am criticizing the way they present themselves as training “warrior combat”. It’s a joke.
I think I’m done arguing about this. To me, all this is extremely arrogant and simply false. I have enough practical and theoretical knowledge to know that.
So are you familiar with Silver’s works?
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 19:38:22 GMT
When you go to Roland’s meetings, there’s no sparring, as I understand it. The rules are set out pretty narrow. They have no heavy gear nor suitable equipment to fence without much protection. So there is no real contact, or someone would get injured. These guys are tricking themselves. I am not saying there is nothing to learn from that approach. I am criticizing the way they present themselves as training “warrior combat”. It’s a joke.
I think I’m done arguing about this. To me, all this is extremely arrogant and simply false. I have enough practical and theoretical knowledge to know that.
So are you familiar with Silver’s works? Markus, there's eight fricking HOURS of sparring per day at the Buckler Bouts. It breaks me down to the level of an infant and has left me QUITE LITERALLY limping through Berlin in the dark in a sweaty tunic trying to mime my way into buying electrolytes and peanuts from a terrified bodega clerk. That's a huge advantage of his system--you get to do an unbelievable amount of blade contact. And it can be very fast. With experienced people it's as fast as the padded approach. I've had no trouble keeping up when I switch to the padded system. The missing piece is hard hitting, obviously. But by leaving that out you can leave the armor off and consequently last a lot longer in the game. In mosh pits with full kit, even half an hour of sparring is enough to seriously exhaust me. Even very fit people can go at most a few hours with breathers. Take off the gear and omit the hard hits and the body lasts longer. Plus, you don't have to check a huge bag at $$$ for the international flight. A banjo case is enough. That's a big bonus.
Ultimately, I view it as a great tool for training certain aspects of the fight. If that's not for you, that's fine. But you obviously don't even understand what he's doing. Again, I'm earnestly telling you to go spar with him and check it out with an open mind before deciding he's some kind of evil force in WMA.
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 19:47:21 GMT
Oh, and one other thing. The full kit approach also doesn't replicate full speed cuts very well. With feders certain counters like the zorn-ort become much more challenging due to the blade wobble. And the change in weight distribution that makes it safer to use at full tilt also makes it hit softer and consequently undermines its defensive utility. You can still get to some of the source techniques, but it more often becomes a game of fast movement and quick snipes. Still useful, but limited like anything else here. Our longsword group always likes to come back to simulators like the Liechtenauer or stiffer, older style feders like the fetchbook from A&A. If you use these--carefully--you can understand how one sword can redirect another and control the space as described in the texts. Wood does too, in the most extreme way. But it has its own limitations and dangers.
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 19:56:13 GMT
Donald McBane once killed five men with a tiny plastic cocktail sword.
He once fought a duel with Musashi and Fiore. He strangled Fiore with pasta and then used him as a human flail to pound Musashi into the ground like a nail.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:03:34 GMT
See, I have done bind-centered stuff for years, almost a decade. I can see where he’s coming from. And it serves a purpose. But there’s so much he willingly ignores and suppresses (or better said: has completely omitted), it takes the “fighting” aspect away. An enclosed world. Happens too often with the “experts”, in all of martial arts (and many fields asides from martial arts).
Of course I’d enjoy some controlled bind work, even nowadays. But it’s a matter of priorities, and realism. But this stuff is pretty far from realism. I could have the most sensible hand for blade action work in the world, and still wouldn’t carry myself the way he does − ‘cause there would still be missing so much to match up realism. Yet he constantly claims otherwise. But I have no reason to hate. Just mock a bit.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:07:07 GMT
Theres Liechtenauer practioners that have been at that art a long time that time and would most likely hang with the best of the best Silverites. Only that then you’d see more Silver in them than Liechtenauer
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:16:42 GMT
Donald McBane once killed five men with a tiny plastic cocktail sword.
He once fought a duel with Musashi and Fiore. He strangled Fiore with pasta and then used him as a human flail to pound Musashi into the ground like a nail.
Sounds like you found his booze stash. , I dont agree with all of his opinions (for example smallsword vs brosdsword or putting a wet napkin on your head for cut protection ) but he did prove himself plenty to use him as an example of an effective fighter post- renaissance fighter with a different view than Silver, correct? My point was most of this is opinion, different stokes for different folks. In what ways do you think he differs from Silver (tactically)?
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:21:27 GMT
Only that then you’d see more Silver in them than Liechtenauer Being a Silverite, have you challenged a Saviolo to a scaffold duel yet? I feel like its hundreds of years in the making. They problem was always the scaffold. Him or mine? His is too narrow to place my feet and mine too shaky to carry his ego
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 20:31:30 GMT
How do you know this? What is real? What was a real fight for them? We have glimpses from sources scattered around a few hundred years. Each source has its own narrow focus. And most of them proclaiming themselves to be the best.
From what I can see, we'll never truly know what a "real swordfight" actually involved during the late medieval or even most of the early modern. We can make educated guesses based on some fragments of primary sources. That's it.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:32:13 GMT
In what ways do you think he differs from Silver (tactically)? One big thing is he is very pro smallsword/rapier and even claims its better than broad/backsword...I actually dont agree with him on this. Yeah! And yet he tells of one of his first experiences that a charging Highlander with a (broad?)sword (and targe) send him running for miles and miles, and even jumping a river of eighteen foot, which made him loose a shoe. I think his small-sword stuff is pretty “English”, a bit more tricky and athletic than the later Hope, perhaps, but still pretty “Silverish” (the way he goes about keeping distance, safety and general mindset). He seemed to agree that there’s good sleeping in a whole skin.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:34:48 GMT
They problem was always the scaffold. Him or mine? His is too narrow to place my feet and mine too shaky to carry his ego I wonder if George considered that? It would be funny to see some Silverite practioners hand out flyers at a Saviolo school though. Don't believe the hype!
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:37:47 GMT
How do you know this? What is real? What was a real fight for them? We have glimpses from sources scattered around a few hundred years. Each source has its own narrow focus. And most of them proclaiming themselves to be the best. From what I can see, we'll never truly know what a "real swordfight" actually involved during the late medieval or even most of the early modern. We can make educated guesses based on some fragments of primary sources. That's it. It occurs to me we had this before I think I said something along the lines of "there is more than the (fencing) sources". And went on with examples. There's more to fighting than "tippy-tap", "oh you got me, didn't you?", "yeah, I think you got me, too", "how beautiful!", "just like the source, how beautiful".
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 20:52:27 GMT
Of flyers or scaffold dueling? We have seen Italians fly off scaffolds like the sparrows do! In pairs, they twitter the most lovely tones!
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 22:04:04 GMT
McBane was the Chuck Norris of his age. Who else would try to stop a fricking musket ball with a targe?
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 22:07:13 GMT
How do you know this? What is real? What was a real fight for them? We have glimpses from sources scattered around a few hundred years. Each source has its own narrow focus. And most of them proclaiming themselves to be the best. From what I can see, we'll never truly know what a "real swordfight" actually involved during the late medieval or even most of the early modern. We can make educated guesses based on some fragments of primary sources. That's it. It occurs to me we had this before I think I said something along the lines of "there is more than the (fencing) sources". And went on with examples. There's more to fighting than "tippy-tap", "oh you got me, didn't you?", "yeah, I think you got me, too", "how beautiful!", "just like the source, how beautiful". These arguments do go on without resolution. I find it more fruitful to get out and cross blades.
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Post by markus313 on Oct 15, 2019 22:28:36 GMT
I find it more fruitful to get out and cross blades. Sure. That’s why I try to train with as many different partners as possible. Like let’s have some rounds with your equipment and if you like, some with mine. All in good jest.
Cosmoline, since you said you visit Germany from time to time, let me know if you should ever be in NRW. I’m right in the middle. Berlin is a bit far for me nowadays, with three kids at home needing to be taken care of; though of course I'd love to join the BBB someday. Without a shadow of doubt, I’m sure we’d enjoy a great time together, in the best sense. You are welcome to stay at my place for a night or some. It would be my honor.
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Post by MOK on Oct 15, 2019 22:48:28 GMT
McBane was the Chuck Norris of his age. Who else would try to stop a fricking musket ball with a targe? Basically, everybody who was shot at while holding a targe, I would presume. It may be a slim chance, but it's still a chance.
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 15, 2019 22:58:26 GMT
Thank you! My travel plans got more complex with marriage, but my wife and I are still planning on getting back to the EU next year. Frankfurt would be the likely point of impact as always, and from there who knows. I'm thinking a bit about getting to the Czech border to visit and participate at the Bernau history park. That's the original reason we hooked up with Roland--you can do his stuff for living history demos and not have to endanger exposed eyeballs and heads too much. But we're also talking about going further down the Rhine. If you're ever up Alaska way, let me know. We have a range of groups at this point from I.33, KDF, Fiore and a fourth one that does tournament HEMA. Plus the usual SCA madmen who kill all of us in our joint events.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 16, 2019 5:15:35 GMT
Just watched the vid - It doesn't look like it would hold up to non - compliant or non - parallel sparring. It seems like it's too reliant on winding and binding but in a really awkward looking way, unlike how in longsword you can still bind and wind when someone's trying to work out of it. And of course without sparring footage with full gear (let's face it, the HEMA gear is the best we have so far, it allows for lightest touch fencing and actually putting force into strikes) it makes me wary that what is being taught is not actually really supposed to be used to offend. Also there are some spots where clearly, people are in danger. 5:26 that guy clearly stopped, Roland didn't. An eye is easy to lose during a demonstration with weapons. 5:42 a spot where Roland almost gets a point to the face, if the other fellow didn't arrest his motion. In the "sparring" video he mentions viking swords didn't need long guards/grips because there wasn't a lot of blade contact, which is very speculative in and of itself. I watched some of his S/B sparring vids - sparring without elbow and knee gear, even if you are into the bull - shido of not wearing padded jacket or pants to deaded blows and allow full force strikes, is a foreign concept to me. The stuff without masks on the same - why risk destroying a pretty important part of your body (face, eye, elbow, knee), for drill? Is there binding with a buckler in sources? It seems odd to me and like it would easily defeat the purpose of having a buckler in the first place, but I'm not a practitioner of S/B. I searched his channel for tournament or fully geared sparring footage (obviously tournaments are not the only gauge of skill, but you can get an idea of how someone holds up under pressure in fighting through them sometimes) and couldn't find any. Cosmoline it sounds like you have sparred with Roland? Have you got any footage of this? Would be really interested to see if his stuff holds up against different styles, because just like we have a bunch of different sabre and rapier treatises from different regions (and less but still a few different longsword and sword and buckler treatises) we should expect many different fighting styles from the viking era.
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