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Post by markus313 on Sept 14, 2019 5:47:32 GMT
^ This.
Regarding the OPs video, I think it looks good and plausible.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 14, 2019 5:53:19 GMT
^ This. Regarding the OPs video, I think it looks good and plausible. Yay, I'm a this. My information comes from past sparring, with 3/4 strength. Those hits are scary as heck to block. Truth be told, the parry was the only way to avoid them. It's why I have always thought low of the "reverse grip, held against the forarm, block" (with dagger) which was shown ineffective by skall. I already argued it was a poor maneuver, as minimal force can displace the blade to expose the forarm. I had no idea why anyone thought the side to side motion of the wrist could compete with a strong downward blow from any weapon weighing over 2lbs
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 16:03:24 GMT
Great move by the guy with neon feet. The other fellow threw himself off balance and glowstick shoes helped him on his way. No amount of armor would have kept the other guy standing.
As for the mortschlag, I think it's a very dumb maneuver. Blades make terrible grips. I could have use for halfswording. If I am popping someone with the pommel its most likely coming from within arms reach as a hammer fist or a hook.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 14, 2019 17:06:58 GMT
^ This. Regarding the OPs video, I think it looks good and plausible. Yay, I'm a this. My information comes from past sparring, with 3/4 strength. Those hits are scary as heck to block. Truth be told, the parry was the only way to avoid them. It's why I have always thought low of the "reverse grip, held against the forarm, block" (with dagger) which was shown ineffective by skall. I already argued it was a poor maneuver, as minimal force can displace the blade to expose the forarm. I had no idea why anyone thought the side to side motion of the wrist could compete with a strong downward blow from any weapon weighing over 2lbs What video was that in? I've seen reference to naval officers using a dirk against their forearm for fighting onboard ships and it seemed to be quite effective.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 14, 2019 17:36:42 GMT
Yay, I'm a this. My information comes from past sparring, with 3/4 strength. Those hits are scary as heck to block. Truth be told, the parry was the only way to avoid them. It's why I have always thought low of the "reverse grip, held against the forarm, block" (with dagger) which was shown ineffective by skall. I already argued it was a poor maneuver, as minimal force can displace the blade to expose the forarm. I had no idea why anyone thought the side to side motion of the wrist could compete with a strong downward blow from any weapon weighing over 2lbs What video was that in? I've seen reference to naval officers using a dirk against their forearm for fighting onboard ships and it seemed to be quite effective. They must be doing something different than I am and that most tend to do, cause the side to side motion of a wrist is dainty compared to like... Any strike with a sword I'll find the video when I'm home But if you have anything on the subject I wouldnt mind giving it a read. I've been trynna make that sort of block work for years
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 17:55:27 GMT
Jordan, naval reference please? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rondel daggers are icepicks. Any number of knives and daggers lend to an icepick hold and can block or deflect another weapon from the forearm. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The longer a lever, the more the force can be applied against a wrist/fulcrum. So, I don't see a dirk or sai as a poor block and indeed, a hanging guard of a longer sword more easily deflected, even if offering a longer block. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Since I see a lot of bench racing going on, I can't say I am unable to offer any less BS than anyone else here but I generally hope to read better context and do wish references could be definitive. Since it is the cafe, I'll just go back to a quiet corner again but once again the troll has come back out from under the bridge.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 14, 2019 18:05:49 GMT
I guess I should specify a bit
Blocking from an ice pick grip isn't too hard to do if the point is kept downward, and moved side to side. I have just never had much success blocking upward when the blade is parallel to the floor. That specific block is one I can't buy
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 14, 2019 20:58:36 GMT
I guess I should specify a bit Blocking from an ice pick grip isn't too hard to do if the point is kept downward, and moved side to side. I have just never had much success blocking upward when the blade is parallel to the floor. That specific block is one I can't buy Like these guys? Yea like that. I can see it working to displace thrusts if held against the forarm, forarm verticle, and shifted to the side. But I have seen some claim to use it horizontal against the forarm to stop an over head blow
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 21:46:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 21:48:12 GMT
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 15, 2019 20:08:26 GMT
Not trying to interrupt your conversation here but in regards to my OP, Whats your opinion of the Gladiator reconstruction? They appear to spar as hard as most modern HEMA guys. First, I don't know what their objective is or their rules are. Gladiator combat apparently involved a lot of showmanship and possibly even kayfabe. It was in a sense Roman pro wrestling, and may not have been nearly as lethal as the image from 50's b movies. That said, I would suggest that they are not using their scuta enough. The pugio are very active though and they appear to be making some fine neck and arm cuts with them. Dagger work is fun because, with the right kind of plastic daggers, you can work without extensive protective equipment.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 15, 2019 20:11:37 GMT
The force debate in a nutshell. He threw himself out of the ring with a bit of assistance from his opponent's sword. He came down so hard with his initial swing that he was airborne. The video demonstrates the importance of stable footwork.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 15, 2019 20:18:23 GMT
Fite me irl lame nerds. Get gud or be fud. Yeah, in period accounts there are a ton of clues as to people making great hacking motions, even into the 19th century there are accounts of cavalry men nearly hacking others in half to the waist from the head or shoulder down, can't do that with a small motion. A good solid cut with a saber, using proper techniques, will do this. There's no need to apply lots of muscle strength. In fact it's almost always a bad idea to muscle blades when doing cutting work. You also need to be very aware of your own exposure when making large motions. That's another reason great hacking motions are usually a bad idea.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 15, 2019 20:29:49 GMT
You also need to be very aware of your own exposure when making large motions. That's another reason great hacking motions are usually a bad idea. Of course you do. But you’re gonna have a very hard time countering a well executed big motion (especially with sword and shield; let's not even touch on mounted combat in mail resp. vs. mail). And you’re gonna fear the after blow. Better to give a big cut with effect and then follow up then to try to sneak in with quickness, just to get struck in a double hit while gaining little or no effect from your side. You cannot efficiently time on the small openings (especially with realistic gear/weapons; and not saying I'm not trying to create/find the openings in free play), and in battle not anyways. Warzecha’s teachings/theories are nonsense for the most part (not all, but a lot of it, I suspect you like his stuff), totally off-hook.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 15, 2019 20:40:25 GMT
Fite me irl lame nerds. Get gud or be fud. Yeah, in period accounts there are a ton of clues as to people making great hacking motions, even into the 19th century there are accounts of cavalry men nearly hacking others in half to the waist from the head or shoulder down, can't do that with a small motion. A good solid cut with a saber, using proper techniques, will do this. There's no need to apply lots of muscle strength. In fact it's almost always a bad idea to muscle blades when doing cutting work. You also need to be very aware of your own exposure when making large motions. That's another reason great hacking motions are usually a bad idea. I'm sorry, but I do think you need to have a good amount of muscle strength to cleave someone down the middle. You absolutely cannot cut through a wool coat, a cotton undershirt, leather belt straps, and the necessary bones and organs on wrist and extension power alone. Hell, it's hard to get through a tatami mat on a number 6 on wrist power alone. Much easier and more stable when you put your chest muscles into play. @edelweiss let me find the account, I believe it was Sir Sydney Smith teaching recruits a method.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 15, 2019 21:34:32 GMT
@edelweiss
Col. George Landmann, Royal Engineers, regarding Admiral Sir Sidney Smith: “Time can never efface the deep impression he made on my mind by his display of the best manner of using a dirk or dagger, one of which he wore at the time [1793 or ’94], and I believe that it was at about this period that dirks began to be used by the navy on common occasions instead of swords. Several of the officers of the artillery and engineers then present at Woolwich [the Royal Military Academy], having expressed a desire that Sir Sidney should show them the manner of using the dirk to which he had alluded, he very kindly drew the one he had on, and with surprising agility and skill, went through the exercise of defence and attack, supposing his adversary to be armed with a cutlass. His attitude was with his right foot advanced, his body bent back, and his right arm raised and covering his forehead, holding the dagger or dirk, which had a strong and broad blade, pointed at his antagonist in a position to stab. ‘Then,’ said he, ‘should my opponent cut down at my head, I should drop the blade of the dirk along my arm, which it should cover up to my elbow; and in that position, by a very slight movement, I could guard to the left or right, receiving any cut on the blade of the dirk; then instantly, before my adversary could recover so as to make a second cut, I should plunge the dagger into him.’ “Thus Sir Sidney went through all the manœuvres for parrying every cut, and I must admit that I was greatly seduced by this display of the dirk versus cutlass. Sir Sidney Smith’s figure, his activity, the brilliancy of his eye, and his black whiskers descending to the bottom of his throat, in those days never before seen, gave him an air of ferocity surpassing any Algerine and any Arab of the desert, which drew forth from every spectator the most unequivocal expressions of admiration. I well remember that, just before this event, the summit of perfection in the way of side arms amongst the officers was a fine, long, and well-curved hanger [naval sword]; but now, the ocular demonstration Sir Sidney had so obligingly given us of the infallibility of the dirk had left such an impression on the minds of all present, and had taken such powerful possession of the opinions of the young officers and cadets at Woolwich, that little else was talked of or thought of; and no weapon was regarded in any way as comparable with the dirk.” (Recollections of My Military Life, 1854.) Lt. Col. W. Gordon-Alexander, 93rd Highlanders, regarding Capt. C. W. Macdonald of the 93rd: “He always went into action with his drawn dirk in his left hand, when most of us discarded it as merely an ornamental weapon; and one day he illustrated to me how the Highlanders used to use it, not only as a weapon of offence, using it then with its point turned outwards, but as a shield and buckler to protect the head and the whole body against sword cuts, with the broad back of the blade pressed against the forearm, point towards the elbow and edge turned outwards, always, of course, using the left hand.” (Recollections of a Highland Subaltern, 1898.) The unfixed bayonet could be substituted for the dirk: “At Callao, in one of the desperate cutting-out expeditions planned by the Earl of Dundonald [Lord Cochrane], when serving in South America [1819-20], the boarders were armed with cutlasses, and had bayonets fastened securely along the outside of their left arms, the points projecting six inches beyond the hand. The bayonets thus formed a perfect guard and enabled the wearers to give a return thrust with the point, if their cut had been turned aside.” (“Swords, Ancient and Modern,” Colburn’s United Service Magazine, 1865.) Capt. J. H. Selwyn, of the Royal Navy, also noted “the peculiarity of Lord Cochrane’s mode of arming his seamen for boarding. He fastened bayonets to their left arms, with the points projecting beyond the hand, and then armed them only with cutlasses, telling them to go and take the enemy. Of course, the bayonet formed a perfect guard, tied as it was along the outside of the arm, with the point projecting about 6 inches. It enabled Lord Cochrane to take the Spanish frigate in the way he did, from under the batteries of Callao.” To which John Latham, sword master and sword maker, responded: “The idea of strapping the bayonet to the arm was perhaps suggested to Lord Dundonald, who was a Scotchman, by the method of using the dirk with the target. The thumb being placed on the hilt of the dirk, the point projected about an inch beyond the elbow; the target was used for parrying, and the return given with the dirk.” (John Latham, “The Shape of Sword Blades,” Journal of the Royal United Service Institution, 1863.)
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 15, 2019 21:36:21 GMT
"No one" I would tag you in it too but I keep forgetting your actual username.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 15, 2019 21:46:47 GMT
A good solid cut with a saber, using proper techniques, will do this. There's no need to apply lots of muscle strength. In fact it's almost always a bad idea to muscle blades when doing cutting work. You also need to be very aware of your own exposure when making large motions. That's another reason great hacking motions are usually a bad idea. I'm sorry, but I do think you need to have a good amount of muscle strength to cleave someone down the middle. You absolutely cannot cut through a wool coat, a cotton undershirt, leather belt straps, and the necessary bones and organs on wrist and extension power alone. Hell, it's hard to get through a tatami mat on a number 6 on wrist power alone. Much easier and more stable when you put your chest muscles into play. @edelweiss let me find the account, I believe it was Sir Sydney Smith teaching recruits a method.
We should define strength first. I'm not talking about wrist power but core body power. From the hips and legs. And in any case I'm not talking about cutting through clothing. Beyond a point with textiles you are better off thrusting. Which, again, should be done with the core strength not with biceps. Muscling with biceps won't help much either way.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 15, 2019 21:50:25 GMT
Of course you do. But you’re gonna have a very hard time countering a well executed big motion (especially with sword and shield; let's not even touch on mounted combat in mail resp. vs. mail). And you’re gonna fear the after blow. Better to give a big cut with effect and then follow up then to try to sneak in with quickness, just to get struck in a double hit while gaining little or no effect from your side. You cannot efficiently time on the small openings (especially with realistic gear/weapons; and not saying I'm not trying to create/find the openings in free play), and in battle not anyways. Warzecha’s teachings/theories are nonsense for the most part (not all, but a lot of it, I suspect you like his stuff), totally off-hook. You work with what you have or you don't work. It would be great if the opponent stood there and let you wind up for an all-mighty slash. But they don't. So you have to be able to make opportunistic cuts to hands, wrists, arms, faces, etc. Even with the short edge. The sources are full of such attacks--often made while in contact with the opponent's sword! A very small cut can easily slice a face in half or a hand off. And that works well enough. Even draw cuts work well enough, which is why they're one of the paradigm means of attack. Going into a fight making every cut as strong as you can makes no sense at all. And I know of no source suggesting such a method. Even in power attacks such as the zornhau, the idea is controlled strength to seize the center. Not to swing without control and accept that you're exposed afterwards. You should NEVER expose your outside line like that unless it's a ruse.
As far as Roland, yeah he's my friend and I find his style interesting. I also do padded HEMA. Each has its own drawbacks and benefits so I do both. Who do you study with? In my experience the ones attacking Roland have never actually sparred with him. He's damn good. Just doesn't like the gear. Just like any other instructor, you take what you can from him. The haters invariably either don't do much actual sparring or have never actually taken a class from him. True high level padded HEMA folks respect him. And the fact is you can get ten times the amount of swordplay done using his method, for all its flaws. With the padded stuff even fit competitors will start to get exhausted much quicker. By way of comparison I got a dozen or so bouts in the HEMA mosh pit at the squatch this past weekend, and it took many hours to get that done. I sweated gallons in the padding, as did everyone else. In Berlin I can get HUNDREDS of bouts in a weekend with only moderate levels of exertion. HUNDREDS. With no gear to tote across the planet beyond a helmet and sword. That's not to be scoffed at.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 15, 2019 22:09:44 GMT
No they won’t stand still if given a choice. And me neither. We also won’t linger in close measure if given a choice, and being of right mind. Unlike what Warzecha trains and propagates. With all the videos he puts out, I have never seen a decent sparring video. Also what helps quantity if the quality is not there. Starbucks BS. On striking technique... To strike well (any strike), you strike using the whole body, of course.
On my training partners/experience.. I train with whoever I can with. Under varying rules/varying gear/circumstances.
I'd call some guys I regularly train with pretty good at what they do/where they come from. I won’t throw out any names here. IDK why it would matter to you anyways in this context. At least they don’t post videos about parrying with the clip of a falchion or thrusting a viking sword into mail using an awkward end-of-pommel-grip, amongst all the other sillyness.
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