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Post by markus313 on Sept 13, 2019 21:31:13 GMT
I’m holding back in sparring, not using period armor and no real swords. Just like everyone else.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 13, 2019 21:31:36 GMT
It's armored combat. Harnessfetchen. And when did we start talking about POLEARMS!? I'm talking about swords.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 13, 2019 21:33:23 GMT
I’m holding back in sparring, not using period armor and no real swords. Just like everyone else. Who is "everyone else"? There's plenty of sparring in HEMA with full force hits. Christ I've been hit with zwerchs that left my head ringing. Obviously nobody is using real sharps at full force. But again, where is your test video showing a sharp cutting through that riveted mail and into the beef? Every test I've seen has shown you need to use some kind of thrust or cut-thrust to break the links. And even then it's far from easy.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 13, 2019 21:34:18 GMT
I'm talking about swords. Me too. That’s why I think Harnischfechten is out of question – cause it needs wrestling to overcome a Harnisch, or half-swording (rare) resp. polearms (common).
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 13, 2019 21:35:08 GMT
Harness is armor. For the high and early medieval this was primarily riveted mail. That's what we're talking about. Specifically, that making a harder simple cut with an arming sword is pointless. You have to use thrusting techniques or cut to exposed parts.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 13, 2019 21:35:49 GMT
I’m holding back in sparring, not using period armor and no real swords. Just like everyone else. Every test I've seen has shown you need to use some kind of thrust or cut-thrust to break the links. And even then it's far from easy. Agreed on all points. And you think it won’t still hurt though?
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 13, 2019 21:37:55 GMT
It can kill if you get through. But you can't just *CUT HARD* and expect to get through. That was my point here. It takes concentrated thrusting force to a specific link to get it to yield. This can tell us something about what anti-mail techniques might have been used.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 13, 2019 21:44:31 GMT
Mail is there to protect from soft cuts (I suspect the cuts you advocate to get to “exposed” areas). It does not protect too good from hard impacts. Again, you can get injured through the mail even without having links split. You also would be happy to reach any part of the body in a real fight, not to speak of exposed areas. Also, a hard cut would need quite a bit of technique, especially when performed in real combat. Also, ask any soldier how they use their guns in a real combat scenario to know how motor skills and vision are working.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 13, 2019 21:51:10 GMT
Has any of this been tested? Because all the tests I've seen with sharps and blows I've taken with simulators show arming swords to be pretty crappy at damaging tissue through percussive impact through armor. At least from the sword blade. I know period art shows blows that cut through steel helmets, but we would need to test that to confirm it before putting it into a speculative reconstruction.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 13, 2019 21:55:35 GMT
Proper tests would be super neat. I would love to, but can't do it ATM. Perhaps someone comes up with a freshly slaughtered carcass and some good mail and see if he can manage to brake a bone. Then again, it doesn’t even need a broken bone to severely impede your fighting. Axes and clubs (yes, clubs) where popular among knights for a reason. Swords work best against soft or no armor, of course – but can work against mail, too – with power.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 22:14:12 GMT
Heaven knows I've gotten into it with Mr. Cosmoline in the past but he's talking sense fellas. Trying to just smash into armor is a really silly tactic.
I was getting at kuzushi through atemi. You strike in such a way that you affect the other guy's balance - not because you hit him so hard but because of the angle, direction of force, etc. There *has* to be a western equivalent and I can't imagine folks running a ludus wouldn't have discovered it on accident given enough time and bodies. It's kind of like putting some spin on the cue ball so it moves the next ball in billiards.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 13, 2019 22:19:10 GMT
When hitting hard it’s best to do it at the best angle, from the best distance, at the best time, yes. Even best to hit the best target. Same with hitting soft.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 13, 2019 23:08:47 GMT
Fite me irl lame nerds. Get gud or be fud.
Yeah, in period accounts there are a ton of clues as to people making great hacking motions, even into the 19th century there are accounts of cavalry men nearly hacking others in half to the waist from the head or shoulder down, can't do that with a small motion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 23:39:41 GMT
Many credible accounts of that happening to armored dudes?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 14, 2019 0:13:06 GMT
Many credible accounts of that happening to armored dudes? I wouldn't know, I only chimed in for the force discussion.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 14, 2019 0:27:26 GMT
Yeah, murder-stroke. Banned at many hema clubs because hema for the most part in regards to medieval and renaissance arts is a simulation of blossfechten.
To be honest, the Gladitorial stuff seems really interesting, but I'm not so sure I would call them martial artists. Looking at paintings etc isn't a good way to find technique, I mean you have to know how people fought in that era to know how to start piecing together technique, especially with such weapons and combos used by gladiators. It could be that there wasn't an actual codified method of fighting for gladiators in the Roman era as we see in the medieval and later eras. It's all speculative, and you really shouldn't look towards it as an example of how it would have looked like.
Is that video with the gladiators something you would pay to see? That's also a factor, the fights had to be entertaining and I wouldn't doubt that flashy movements saw some play.
Of course, I'm commenting on this as someone who loves martial arts, reads the treatises regarding my interests whenever I can spare the time, and actively hunt out accounts of actual fighting. Not as someone who wants to recreate dead fighting arts that we have no record of, and so we need to basically larp until it looks good.
I've tried viking shield fighting before actually, but only once. Those bois been swole.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Sept 14, 2019 0:54:03 GMT
The force debate in a nutshell.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 14, 2019 5:23:28 GMT
The force debate in a nutshell. Silly coffee.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 14, 2019 5:23:44 GMT
Some seem to think a smallsword would’ve been the way to go vs. mail on a medieval battlefield.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 14, 2019 5:46:24 GMT
The force debate in a nutshell. Which one represents force? I hope it's not the guy lunging forward. Force can be applied in crazy amounts at a much more restrained motion Most use body motion for force, which makes sense But strong arms can allow less motion for greater force. I don't see this taught often Don't roast me, bros
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