Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 11, 2019 10:15:53 GMT
Must have bought this ,,weapon'' a while ago. Bought it (why?),oiled it and stored it and forgot all about it. I don't even know what this is supposed to be exactly. I guess it dates from the 17th or 18th C? It is a dainty little thing, but an angry fishwife armed with a good codfish is much more dangerous. It may be a hunter sabre, but the etchings on the blade, what is left of them anyway, suggest otherwise. On one side there is the remnant of a horse, head and front leg and on the other something what could be construed as sails of a ship. The rest are some flowery doodles. There are no makers marks. Very light at 650 grams and a POB of 14.5 cm from the guard I would fear the codfish more. Though the wiring is well made, I think it is not period. Here are the numbers: Blade length: 76 cm. Might have been 77 cm as some of the tip is missing. Blade width: 36 mm. Blade thickness: 6 mm. And here are the pictures: Horse head and front leg. Ship sails? Flowery doodles? Neat peen. I could only find one example that comes rather close. This is supposed to be American/European, which, translated, means the seller doesn't know either. I hope one of you does know what I have here. Cheers.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Sept 11, 2019 12:58:23 GMT
I don't actually, but has the characteristics of a mid 18th Century German hanger. Thumb rings were pretty rare after 1750. Looks pretty homespun. Where's a makers mark when you need one?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 12:58:51 GMT
Although I would suspect it could simply be regarded as a feldegen or walloon, the blade looks 18th century to be. I'll take a look in Neumann's Swords&Blades. Thumb rings are still around in the later 18th century. The cast features of the hilt components lend to later vs earlier.
The second (I believe) would fall into the cutlass category and kind of French or American colonial. There are some poorly attributed in Neuman's books but often where one will see a siblng illustrated.
Cheers GC
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 11, 2019 13:43:01 GMT
Thanks for your input. Looked at the horse etch again and now see two front legs. This reminds me very much of the ,,Vivat Hussar'' etch on some Solingen blades.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 14:14:24 GMT
In the horsie etch, could that be a fluke to an anchor mebbe and what we see as part of a horse, actually a hippocampus? I suppose that is the horse's head. That is a good length of blade though, so mebbe cavalry. I'm off to the jawbreaker but I'll look in some books later. Cheers GC
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Post by MOK on Sept 11, 2019 16:34:18 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 11, 2019 17:18:11 GMT
Matthew Jenson is tortuga trading?
Following this thread for updates, I don't know but jack all on the subject of this era of sword but it sure is interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 17:32:15 GMT
Matthew Jenson is tortuga trading? Following this thread for updates, I don't know but jack all on the subject of this era of sword but it sure is interesting. No!
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Post by MOK on Sept 11, 2019 18:25:04 GMT
D'oh!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 11, 2019 18:58:17 GMT
Thanks for the link Mok!
The Tortuga Trading example has a blade design that looks like mine. I would like to know what the Tortuga Trader based his idea it being Dutch on. The shell inlay is missing. By the way, I cannot make anything of the decoration on the brass inlay on my sabre. Like with the Walloon, it seems to be rather hard to pinpoint the origin. This thing was made Europe wide it looks like. I do not think the etch is depicting a Hippocampus. The horse has a bridle and other gear. What looks like ship sails on the other side may just be part of something totally different. I do not think there is a Navy connection. On the other hand this sabre or whatever it is supposed to be does not strike me as a campaign weapon. The hilt is simply not sturdy enough and overall it is too light to do serious damage. The ,, Codfish of Doom''.... Now there is something to behold...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 21:07:42 GMT
Well, I've skimmed through some books and don't find a direct sibling Elements of the guard can be found into the 18th century but in retrospect, my impression of being older doesn't really gel with a certain feature of the grip. That being the Turk's heads. That's not to say we don't see them in the 18th century but the overall of the hilt may be a nod to being 17th century. The guess it is Dutch is probably going with the flow. As fitment and the blade etch may have been the work of several shops, its really only when we have a hilt mark associated with the craftsman and a blade mark to label it to a specific forge. Being way out of my depth, I do recall some mentioning specific Dutch swords, much like hallmarks for a specific town. With so much of this etch removed/worn, it is really anyone's guess as to the forge and etched art. The shorter sword in the first post is quite similar in profile to Neumann's 364.s which is described as American/European 1740-1760 and probably what that fellow is using as reference. A half assed snap Gilkerson's Boarders Away lists similar thin iron shelled branched thumb ring cutlasses as early as the mid 17th century. Sorry I didn't bring that to this keypad and camera but take my word for that. French and 17th century. Nothing quite like either in the Flayderman/Medicus collection aside from the grip wire work. The bulk from all three books (and toss in a paragraph from Peterson) that have thumb rings and single shell are cast brass hilts and from the 1740s-1760s. Peterson's old testament from 1954 and the Medicus book drawing heavily on Neumann's 1970s notes. There are better continental resources such as Wangner (that I don't own). I'll look through some more US titles but it was those mentioned I figured might yield that hilt. There is a long walloon thread at myArmoury. SFI as well and look at post #9 in this thread www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?119783-Dating-Walloons-By-Screws-Or-Notmyarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 21:17:39 GMT
Re Tortuga, Sean Rich was the original arms expert on the History Channel's Pawn Stars. Dis-credited by some and it is probably why they don't last on the show. Currently, their expert is one of the owners/partners of International Military Antiques www.ima-usa.com/Cheers GC
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 12, 2019 8:59:44 GMT
Been reading the links you gave Edelweiss. Thanks for those as they contain lots of info on the Walloon type, with good pictures too. I bookmarked them and I suggest others interested in the Walloon to do this too. From what I read and the pictures of your Walloon, one that qua hilt comes quite close, for example the pommel, the peen platform there on, the turksheads and the thumbring, for now I would date the hilt of my specimen as 17th C and probably Swiss-Austrian, as the guard plate is decorated in the same style as the German example with the Green Man (?) head. I have toyed with the idea that in the course of its life the blade was swapped for the sabre style blade it has, but when looking at the slender build of the hilt and the light blade, I have to conclude the two were made for each other. There is no way this thinny hilt could have supported a campaign blade whether Cavalry or Infantry, in any useful way. So this leaves me to think it may have been an Officers Extra or Dress Walloon style Hanger or something for the hunt. Though the faded etch seems to suggest a connection to Hussars, I cannot see a serious member of that tribe considering going to war nor ,,doing the town'' with this iffy thing. If there was a ,,Vivat Hussaria'' etch on the blade, it probably wasn't meant to be taken seriously. A ,, 17th C. Walloon style Hanger, in the Swiss or Austrian taste'' seems an appropriate label at this point?
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