AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 5, 2019 18:39:40 GMT
Mainz type gladii were made 1000 years after the bronze age.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 5, 2019 21:17:48 GMT
my fantasy sword would have ruled them all :) That reminds of something double-edged, straight, and longsword-sized. Gently leafy: www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4047seriously though.. anyone know if there ever were any warriors that put a notch or something on their weapons for recorded kills? some of those peeps i'd expect really had bloodlust and probably proud of how many they murdered... It is sometimes said that the brass plugs to be found on many kampilans and mandaus are such counts. I don't believe it. In many cases, it simply isn't true, with weapons never used in battle having the plugs.
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 9,756
Member is Online
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 6, 2019 2:20:43 GMT
A two handed gladius?? Next you show us a two handed viking sword with a leaf blade I assume!
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Post by dc on Sept 6, 2019 3:38:48 GMT
Remember that short swords like the gladius were only half a weapon, the other half was the shield. As time went on, more swords were used for calvary and needed to be longer and single edge swords could be made lighter and cheaper. I think the move from the elegant waist shaped gladius to the more straight edged gladius and qama was a bean counter thing--they were cheaper to make, stabbed just as well and slashed almost as well. I have a couple Lakonias and find them quite elegant and with the adbvantage they have more sharpened edge than a single edged sword. I will probably buy some more Greek swords for the esthetics, but my HD swords are single edged and a little longer. For gladii the move from leaf to straight blades may have been a cost saving measure. However, I don't think this was the case for the spatha and other later swords. For a short sword a leaf blade blade gives up little in performance and has some benefits - the blade is rather light so a little extra weight doesn't hurt, and additional weight at the tip probably improves the balance cutting. But when swords grew longer (I presume due to improved metallurgy making longer blades possible) weight and balance became bigger concerns - if a blade was either too heavy or balanced too much toward the tip it would be slow and awkward to wield. Thus it would've became a choice between a leaf blade or straight blade a few inches longer. And reach can be major advantage. Especially when one cannot afford armour, or when using a sidearm (like a sword) for self defence when a shield is impractical. For example, the Roman heavy infantry used the short Gladius with a large shield and (for the time) heavy armour, while their troops with smaller shields and lighter armour used spears or longer swords like the Spatha.
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Post by wstalcup on Sept 6, 2019 14:00:59 GMT
my fantasy sword would have ruled them all That reminds of something double-edged, straight, and longsword-sized. Gently leafy: www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4047seriously though.. anyone know if there ever were any warriors that put a notch or something on their weapons for recorded kills? some of those peeps i'd expect really had bloodlust and probably proud of how many they murdered... It is sometimes said that the brass plugs to be found on many kampilans and mandaus are such counts. I don't believe it. In many cases, it simply isn't true, with weapons never used in battle having the plugs. wow.. i wonder how that thing handles.. maybe someone was "cheating" with those unused weapons with plug?
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Post by MOK on Sept 6, 2019 16:05:45 GMT
maybe someone was "cheating" with those unused weapons with plug? It's possible, of course, but more likely they're just decoration to begin with. AFAIK the notion that they represent a kill count is a modern western idea.
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Post by rhema1313 on Sept 9, 2019 1:13:27 GMT
As a craftsman who specializes in Roman Swords... the Gladius Hispaniensis sword was originally adapted from a Spanish Sword. The Romans were know to "Steal" other people Patients. >LOL< They would take what they saw "Working" and make it their own.
I make a number of types of Hispaniensis Sword Blades ranging in lengths and the way they are ground. Both Hollow Ground and Lenticular. The Original "Mainz" Gladius is a shorter and wider blade. I also make a number of them. "Leaf" blades and also "Waisted blades with a straighter edge tip to point.
Why where they made this way?
I believe they were made to be "KILLERS" not Wounders... Think for a moment the "Leaf" shape of the blade starts at the tip and expands backwards to roughly 2" on the Hispaniensis and nearly 2 3/4" on the Mainz. Continuing further up the blade, it "Narrows" or "Narrows" and then widens again at the guard of the hilt. Imagine for a moment this sword being thrust "Straight in" and pulled "Straight out" of your opponent. This "Waist" or "S" curve on both sides of this double edge sword in a thrusting motion... opens up the wound as it begins to cut. The widening of the blade opens up the wound wider and as it passes through the flesh, the flesh and the organ tissue cling to the blade... closing around the blade as the waist continues to penetrate the blade is beginning to cut the flesh, organs and tissues into ribbons, not just a one "Slot" cut. When the blade is retracted and withdrawn... (Again imagine strait in and straight out) it creates a reverse cutting motion, again, shredding into ribbons. Wounds like this don't ever heal!!! ... and cannot be sewn. You have a 2 1/2" Hole of shredded ribbons flesh with the HIspaniensis, and a 3" - 3 1/4" hole with the Mainz
Now... a Trained Legionary was taught to angle cut... in and our and if possible twist the blade 90 degrees on the with drawl. This now leaves a hole that is shaped somewhat like the "PLUS" sign "+" and has left a hole anywhere on average from 3"- 14" in bot directions depending on where the hit took place. A total Disembowelment... Catch the opponent at the leg joint of the knees and it is possible to sever the leg below the knee.
Many will argue that the Gladius Blades were only made for thrusting. In reality it is indeed a thrusting sword. However, Livy gives the following graphic account of the effectiveness of the gladius Hispaniensis in battle c. 200 BCE:
[Macedonian soldiers] being accustomed to fight with the Greeks and Illyrians, had seen the wounds which were made by spears and arrows and, on rare occasions, by lance; but now they saw bodies mutilated by the Spanish sword (gladius Hispaniensis), arms lopped off at the shoulder, or heads separated from bodies with the neck cut right through, or entrails lying open, and other repulsive wounds, and there was general panic as they began to see what sort of weapon and what sort of men they had to fight.
Those were not "Thrusting" moves with the sword but slashing. The Waist of the sword would also "Pull" limbs and torsos into it, in a hooking motion as the blade would pull backwards nearing the point.
Cambel wrote: "The Republican weapon looks as suited to cutting as to thrusting - and, returning to the texts, Polybius makes clear it was actually used in both modes, even if thrusting was tactically preferred against foes like the Gauls to foil the long reach of their blades. The case of gladius Hispaniensis exemplifies a general point; our most cherished received ideas about the classical past are open to challenge from new research, not least in archaeology." (Campbell, 123)
Josephus and other historians of the day wrote about not only the effectiveness of the sword in battle, but that Rome's enemies never experienced such a weapon on the battlefield before and how a legionary could stab his opponent three or more times with lightening speed causing wounds that would never heal, if in deed they could ever drag themselves off the battlefield. The Ankle, the Achilles tendon, The Ham String, the main arteries in the calf, and the inner thigh, the groin, the abdomen, up and under the ribcage, the heart, the throat and the jugular in a thrusting motion and how this sword could cut a man in two tom the neck to the waist leaving the head and one full arm totally severed when used to slash.
This is a very wicked sword that Really made the Roman Empire the conquering force that it was for hundreds of years between the Hispaniensis around 200bc-to the Fulham Style the latter part of the first century ad until they converted to the Parallel straight sided double edged sword of the Pompeii style which was soon after changed over to the Spathe in the 2nd-3rd Century ad.
So why this design that spanned about 500 years with many variations? Because it was an AK-47 of it's time! It was a killer that struck fear into the enemy! It was the sword that made Rome what it was!
I hope this helps... --Patrick
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Post by pvsampson on Sept 9, 2019 9:23:02 GMT
As a craftsman who specializes in Roman Swords... the Gladius Hispaniensis sword was originally adapted from a Spanish Sword. The Romans were know to "Steal" other people Patients. >LOL< They would take what they saw "Working" and make it their own. I make a number of types of Hispaniensis Sword Blades ranging in lengths and the way they are ground. Both Hollow Ground and Lenticular. The Original "Mainz" Gladius is a shorter and wider blade. I also make a number of them. "Leaf" blades and also "Waisted blades with a straighter edge tip to point. Why where they made this way? I believe they were made to be "KILLERS" not Wounders... Think for a moment the "Leaf" shape of the blade starts at the tip and expands backwards to roughly 2" on the Hispaniensis and nearly 2 3/4" on the Mainz. Continuing further up the blade, it "Narrows" or "Narrows" and then widens again at the guard of the hilt. Imagine for a moment this sword being thrust "Straight in" and pulled "Straight out" of your opponent. This "Waist" or "S" curve on both sides of this double edge sword in a thrusting motion... opens up the wound as it begins to cut. The widening of the blade opens up the wound wider and as it passes through the flesh, the flesh and the organ tissue cling to the blade... closing around the blade as the waist continues to penetrate the blade is beginning to cut the flesh, organs and tissues into ribbons, not just a one "Slot" cut. When the blade is retracted and withdrawn... (Again imagine strait in and straight out) it creates a reverse cutting motion, again, shredding into ribbons. Wounds like this don't ever heal!!! ... and cannot be sewn. You have a 2 1/2" Hole of shredded ribbons flesh with the HIspaniensis, and a 3" - 3 1/4" hole with the Mainz Now... a Trained Legionary was taught to angle cut... in and our and if possible twist the blade 90 degrees on the with drawl. This now leaves a hole that is shaped somewhat like the "PLUS" sign "+" and has left a hole anywhere on average from 3"- 14" in bot directions depending on where the hit took place. A total Disembowelment... Catch the opponent at the leg joint of the knees and it is possible to sever the leg below the knee. Many will argue that the Gladius Blades were only made for thrusting. In reality it is indeed a thrusting sword. However, Livy gives the following graphic account of the effectiveness of the gladius Hispaniensis in battle c. 200 BCE: [Macedonian soldiers] being accustomed to fight with the Greeks and Illyrians, had seen the wounds which were made by spears and arrows and, on rare occasions, by lance; but now they saw bodies mutilated by the Spanish sword (gladius Hispaniensis), arms lopped off at the shoulder, or heads separated from bodies with the neck cut right through, or entrails lying open, and other repulsive wounds, and there was general panic as they began to see what sort of weapon and what sort of men they had to fight. Those were not "Thrusting" moves with the sword but slashing. The Waist of the sword would also "Pull" limbs and torsos into it, in a hooking motion as the blade would pull backwards nearing the point. Cambel wrote: "The Republican weapon looks as suited to cutting as to thrusting - and, returning to the texts, Polybius makes clear it was actually used in both modes, even if thrusting was tactically preferred against foes like the Gauls to foil the long reach of their blades. The case of gladius Hispaniensis exemplifies a general point; our most cherished received ideas about the classical past are open to challenge from new research, not least in archaeology." (Campbell, 123) Josephus and other historians of the day wrote about not only the effectiveness of the sword in battle, but that Rome's enemies never experienced such a weapon on the battlefield before and how a legionary could stab his opponent three or more times with lightening speed causing wounds that would never heal, if in deed they could ever drag themselves off the battlefield. The Ankle, the Achilles tendon, The Ham String, the main arteries in the calf, and the inner thigh, the groin, the abdomen, up and under the ribcage, the heart, the throat and the jugular in a thrusting motion and how this sword could cut a man in two tom the neck to the waist leaving the head and one full arm totally severed when used to slash. This is a very wicked sword that Really made the Roman Empire the conquering force that it was for hundreds of years between the Hispaniensis around 200bc-to the Fulham Style the latter part of the first century ad until they converted to the Parallel straight sided double edged sword of the Pompeii style which was soon after changed over to the Spathe in the 2nd-3rd Century ad. So why this design that spanned about 500 years with many variations? Because it was an AK-47 of it's time! It was a killer that struck fear into the enemy! It was the sword that made Rome what it was! I hope this helps... --Patrick My pulse quickened and my breaths got deeper reading this post. Excellent explanation,and now I feel I want to go and hunt barbarians and such enemies of the Republic.
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Post by wstalcup on Sept 9, 2019 14:39:22 GMT
As a craftsman who specializes in Roman Swords... the Gladius Hispaniensis sword was originally adapted from a Spanish Sword. The Romans were know to "Steal" other people Patients. >LOL< They would take what they saw "Working" and make it their own. I make a number of types of Hispaniensis Sword Blades ranging in lengths and the way they are ground. Both Hollow Ground and Lenticular. The Original "Mainz" Gladius is a shorter and wider blade. I also make a number of them. "Leaf" blades and also "Waisted blades with a straighter edge tip to point. Why where they made this way? I believe they were made to be "KILLERS" not Wounders... Think for a moment the "Leaf" shape of the blade starts at the tip and expands backwards to roughly 2" on the Hispaniensis and nearly 2 3/4" on the Mainz. Continuing further up the blade, it "Narrows" or "Narrows" and then widens again at the guard of the hilt. Imagine for a moment this sword being thrust "Straight in" and pulled "Straight out" of your opponent. This "Waist" or "S" curve on both sides of this double edge sword in a thrusting motion... opens up the wound as it begins to cut. The widening of the blade opens up the wound wider and as it passes through the flesh, the flesh and the organ tissue cling to the blade... closing around the blade as the waist continues to penetrate the blade is beginning to cut the flesh, organs and tissues into ribbons, not just a one "Slot" cut. When the blade is retracted and withdrawn... (Again imagine strait in and straight out) it creates a reverse cutting motion, again, shredding into ribbons. Wounds like this don't ever heal!!! ... and cannot be sewn. You have a 2 1/2" Hole of shredded ribbons flesh with the HIspaniensis, and a 3" - 3 1/4" hole with the Mainz Now... a Trained Legionary was taught to angle cut... in and our and if possible twist the blade 90 degrees on the with drawl. This now leaves a hole that is shaped somewhat like the "PLUS" sign "+" and has left a hole anywhere on average from 3"- 14" in bot directions depending on where the hit took place. A total Disembowelment... Catch the opponent at the leg joint of the knees and it is possible to sever the leg below the knee. Many will argue that the Gladius Blades were only made for thrusting. In reality it is indeed a thrusting sword. However, Livy gives the following graphic account of the effectiveness of the gladius Hispaniensis in battle c. 200 BCE: [Macedonian soldiers] being accustomed to fight with the Greeks and Illyrians, had seen the wounds which were made by spears and arrows and, on rare occasions, by lance; but now they saw bodies mutilated by the Spanish sword (gladius Hispaniensis), arms lopped off at the shoulder, or heads separated from bodies with the neck cut right through, or entrails lying open, and other repulsive wounds, and there was general panic as they began to see what sort of weapon and what sort of men they had to fight. Those were not "Thrusting" moves with the sword but slashing. The Waist of the sword would also "Pull" limbs and torsos into it, in a hooking motion as the blade would pull backwards nearing the point. Cambel wrote: "The Republican weapon looks as suited to cutting as to thrusting - and, returning to the texts, Polybius makes clear it was actually used in both modes, even if thrusting was tactically preferred against foes like the Gauls to foil the long reach of their blades. The case of gladius Hispaniensis exemplifies a general point; our most cherished received ideas about the classical past are open to challenge from new research, not least in archaeology." (Campbell, 123) Josephus and other historians of the day wrote about not only the effectiveness of the sword in battle, but that Rome's enemies never experienced such a weapon on the battlefield before and how a legionary could stab his opponent three or more times with lightening speed causing wounds that would never heal, if in deed they could ever drag themselves off the battlefield. The Ankle, the Achilles tendon, The Ham String, the main arteries in the calf, and the inner thigh, the groin, the abdomen, up and under the ribcage, the heart, the throat and the jugular in a thrusting motion and how this sword could cut a man in two tom the neck to the waist leaving the head and one full arm totally severed when used to slash. This is a very wicked sword that Really made the Roman Empire the conquering force that it was for hundreds of years between the Hispaniensis around 200bc-to the Fulham Style the latter part of the first century ad until they converted to the Parallel straight sided double edged sword of the Pompeii style which was soon after changed over to the Spathe in the 2nd-3rd Century ad. So why this design that spanned about 500 years with many variations? Because it was an AK-47 of it's time! It was a killer that struck fear into the enemy! It was the sword that made Rome what it was! I hope this helps... --Patrick Patrick, It helps quite a lot! Thank you for spending the time in writing such a detailed and thorough explanation! What horrible people they were! Probably their victims were mostly unarmored, and when the enemy started wearing armor, then maybe such a wide bladed weapon became less effective and more narrow weapons needed to be produced.. anyway thanks again!
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Post by Siward on Sept 9, 2019 18:58:57 GMT
As a craftsman who specializes in Roman Swords... the Gladius Hispaniensis sword was originally adapted from a Spanish Sword. The Romans were know to "Steal" other people Patients. >LOL< They would take what they saw "Working" and make it their own. I make a number of types of Hispaniensis Sword Blades ranging in lengths and the way they are ground. Both Hollow Ground and Lenticular. The Original "Mainz" Gladius is a shorter and wider blade. I also make a number of them. "Leaf" blades and also "Waisted blades with a straighter edge tip to point. Why where they made this way? I believe they were made to be "KILLERS" not Wounders... Think for a moment the "Leaf" shape of the blade starts at the tip and expands backwards to roughly 2" on the Hispaniensis and nearly 2 3/4" on the Mainz. Continuing further up the blade, it "Narrows" or "Narrows" and then widens again at the guard of the hilt. Imagine for a moment this sword being thrust "Straight in" and pulled "Straight out" of your opponent. This "Waist" or "S" curve on both sides of this double edge sword in a thrusting motion... opens up the wound as it begins to cut. The widening of the blade opens up the wound wider and as it passes through the flesh, the flesh and the organ tissue cling to the blade... closing around the blade as the waist continues to penetrate the blade is beginning to cut the flesh, organs and tissues into ribbons, not just a one "Slot" cut. When the blade is retracted and withdrawn... (Again imagine strait in and straight out) it creates a reverse cutting motion, again, shredding into ribbons. Wounds like this don't ever heal!!! ... and cannot be sewn. You have a 2 1/2" Hole of shredded ribbons flesh with the HIspaniensis, and a 3" - 3 1/4" hole with the Mainz Now... a Trained Legionary was taught to angle cut... in and our and if possible twist the blade 90 degrees on the with drawl. This now leaves a hole that is shaped somewhat like the "PLUS" sign "+" and has left a hole anywhere on average from 3"- 14" in bot directions depending on where the hit took place. A total Disembowelment... Catch the opponent at the leg joint of the knees and it is possible to sever the leg below the knee. Many will argue that the Gladius Blades were only made for thrusting. In reality it is indeed a thrusting sword. However, Livy gives the following graphic account of the effectiveness of the gladius Hispaniensis in battle c. 200 BCE: [Macedonian soldiers] being accustomed to fight with the Greeks and Illyrians, had seen the wounds which were made by spears and arrows and, on rare occasions, by lance; but now they saw bodies mutilated by the Spanish sword (gladius Hispaniensis), arms lopped off at the shoulder, or heads separated from bodies with the neck cut right through, or entrails lying open, and other repulsive wounds, and there was general panic as they began to see what sort of weapon and what sort of men they had to fight. Those were not "Thrusting" moves with the sword but slashing. The Waist of the sword would also "Pull" limbs and torsos into it, in a hooking motion as the blade would pull backwards nearing the point. Cambel wrote: "The Republican weapon looks as suited to cutting as to thrusting - and, returning to the texts, Polybius makes clear it was actually used in both modes, even if thrusting was tactically preferred against foes like the Gauls to foil the long reach of their blades. The case of gladius Hispaniensis exemplifies a general point; our most cherished received ideas about the classical past are open to challenge from new research, not least in archaeology." (Campbell, 123) Josephus and other historians of the day wrote about not only the effectiveness of the sword in battle, but that Rome's enemies never experienced such a weapon on the battlefield before and how a legionary could stab his opponent three or more times with lightening speed causing wounds that would never heal, if in deed they could ever drag themselves off the battlefield. The Ankle, the Achilles tendon, The Ham String, the main arteries in the calf, and the inner thigh, the groin, the abdomen, up and under the ribcage, the heart, the throat and the jugular in a thrusting motion and how this sword could cut a man in two tom the neck to the waist leaving the head and one full arm totally severed when used to slash. This is a very wicked sword that Really made the Roman Empire the conquering force that it was for hundreds of years between the Hispaniensis around 200bc-to the Fulham Style the latter part of the first century ad until they converted to the Parallel straight sided double edged sword of the Pompeii style which was soon after changed over to the Spathe in the 2nd-3rd Century ad. So why this design that spanned about 500 years with many variations? Because it was an AK-47 of it's time! It was a killer that struck fear into the enemy! It was the sword that made Rome what it was! I hope this helps... --Patrick Superb post.
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Post by buliwyf on Jan 4, 2020 23:05:41 GMT
I dont own this Jody Samson leaf blade any more (kick myself) but it could make one hell of a cut,a bit heavy though.
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