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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 29, 2019 17:34:39 GMT
I don't have the CS Five Ball spadroon but the Navy Officer's sword which is rather a backsword than a spadroon, at least the tip section is double edged after I sharpened the false edge. Spadroons, light backswords, light and rather straight infantry sabers fall for me in the same class of EDC swords of that time. My sword is nimble as a dream but for a fight - not a smallsword duel - probably not substantial enough.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:36:21 GMT
One would figure that with all the antiques on the market that reproductions would be better than this. So many of them are cheap and disappointing looking. The craftsmanship of the originals is q fascinating topic to explore.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:38:13 GMT
Question: how long did the hinge shell guard persist? I have seen them on the 1796, but was this a feature of later spadroons?
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Post by wlewisiii on Aug 29, 2019 17:46:08 GMT
Likely German made but etched to George III. Neat. Thanks for the information. I like it's style - wish there was something like that being made.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 18:01:51 GMT
This has been a really illuminating conversation and the volume of information is overwhelming. I will spend the evening trying to digest some of it. I really appreciate the input. For me, my present and past life's work. My primary interests are a few decades of the U.S. sword market and more particularly eaglehead pommel swords. Of those, three particular variations from England in the first decade of the 19th century and the last decade of the 18th century. Along my way since my teens, I have watched the modern sword market, along with an interest in antiquity. I am retired and these few subjects what I do with a lot of my time (aside from current events and auto road racing around the globe). It is a Spa and Silverstone weekend (and more). Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 18:17:34 GMT
I don't have the CS Five Ball spadroon but the Navy Officer's sword which is rather a backsword than a spadroon, at least the tip section is double edged after I sharpened the false edge. Spadroons, light backswords, light and rather straight infantry sabers fall for me in the same class of EDC swords of that time. My sword is nimble as a dream but for a fight - not a smallsword duel - probably not substantial enough. Not a backsword blade but rather a continental spadroon trait. The German blades often were and the fashion becomes quite epee like in flexibility like the later diminutive postal degen. It is here we start to enter the terminology and semantic portion of the discussion Here is one of my Osborn Weeper blades, a more continental epee like spadroon blade Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 18:25:56 GMT
Question: how long did the hinge shell guard persist? I have seen them on the 1796, but was this a feature of later spadroons? Hinged guards are found on a number of straight and curved swords into the 20th century. The 1796 variety a fairly simple spring, operating kind of like a liner lock on a folding knife. They did not really last in history, or indeed even in real use. Also found on some p1796 heavy cavalry dress swords. Later development of sturdier methods have more physical strength. Cheers GC An edit in that I am mistaken re the 1796 hc dress swords. We do see them on French swords after the first empire and late on the folding guard 1889 swords on both sides. The US used them on the 1841 officer's sword and one, sometimes both on the French inspired m1860 staff&field, which were spring loaded buttons/pegs. The French ones with more of a spring loaded hemispherical routine, sturdier than the old 1796 routine.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 29, 2019 18:37:22 GMT
Cool, I have a spadroon and just didn't know it!
Concerning the hilts: Two years ago I visited the Germanic National Museum in Nürnberg and I've seen there many swords with such hilts but with much bigger blades, sometimes real broadsword blades. That made me think the wanted those hilts for easier carrying and mounted them on a blade whatever they found usefull.
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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2019 18:54:08 GMT
In today's market, modifying one of the period short musician boy swords would be a waste of a scarce commodity. OTOH, the regular nco and musician swords are still plentiful. To be honest, the reproductions would be cheaper and more rational alternatives to use for such modification. The thought experiment bullcrap really detracts from serious discussion regarding this type of sword and I wish such would be limited to other sections. While not responding to direct questions might seem aloof, my responses to the nonsense are only going to reach a really offensive nature. That said, there were wider bladed versions of what we see of the standard m1840 spadroons and if one wants an even wider blade, go back to the earlier swords that influenced the U.S, ordnance board. As to the short USMC example above, perhaps you'll find the following interesting. www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116089-Odd-Ames-M1840-NCO-Swordwww.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?117174-Short-fuller-M1840-NCO-SwordsRichard has continued to pursue the topics of USMC nco and musician swords, with me pestering him over the years. www.swordforum.com/vb4/member.php?96387-Richard-SchenkChopping up a complete period sword for modern play would be a bit like chopping up a period and complete classic car to make a dune buggy. Parts are parts but there is a limit one might consider. Since the original quest was looking for reproductions, I'd rather regard my offering up original examples as what they are, rather than regarding them as a basis for the "what if" bylines. Cheers GC To be clear, I was only wondering if these swords were chopped down and repurposed in the past, as only an insane, brain dead lunatic would do so to a beautiful antique. I took a chance on the rondell thought experiment (knowing you aren't personally so crazy about such tangents), but people like to beat up on these things so I wanted to look outside the box, weapons wise. You have quite the killer collection.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 19:03:49 GMT
If I could go back to my first reply to this thread regarding worth as a weapon, the cheddar/strength is the issue in the build. Those swords with a backstrap will inherently survive more blows. The more rigid the assembly, the more force any sword can survive a blow. I describe any sword that does not have a backstrap as having a floating pommel. That includes medieval swords. The difference over the centuries is tang width, blade width and a sword's purpose. The p1796 infantry has more shock absorption capability than a simple stirrup. Both have floating pommels. My beefy slotted hilt, stronger again but less tang strength than a sword with a backstrap. It is in the last couple of decades in the 18th century that one will see infantry and cavalry swords alike employing more with a backstrap than even later multi branched 19th century sword guards. The heavy branched guards in turn, like my slotted hilt spadroon, will absorb some of the energy. Backstraps were nothing new and the hussar type hilts go back further in time than 1790s. As to modern reproductions, it then (in my mind) goes back to "what are you going to do with it?". I bought a fairly straight sabre reproduction with a backstrap to sharpen and cut with. I soon found it to be a fools errand and later overjoyed with "Blackie" above for those fun moments. There are a number of modern reproductions that do kind of fill the void, with most reproduction spadroons better regarded as costume and reenacting options. That brings us back to the US m1840. Reproduction, or original Warts and all. The Cold Steel swords are sold sharp. The CS US military models are company endorsed as to strength and the 1852 naval straight blade of spadroon length. www.amazon.com/Cold-Steel-88MNA-Officers-Handle/dp/B006Z2KRW8/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?Is that a spadroon? Kind of but not what the sabre the US m1852 started out as. If stretching, as Matt is wont to do, there are plenty of stronger and better fit straight infantry swords out there and I'd go back again to my comment that the morts are the better buy right now as far as the reproduction aesthetic and practical use goes as far as bang for the buck. Or, scrounge a period m1840 nco off ebay and enjoy a beginning. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 19:30:57 GMT
Cool, I have a spadroon and just didn't know it! Concerning the hilts: Two years ago I visited the Germanic National Museum in Nürnberg and I've seen there many swords with such hilts but with much bigger blades, sometimes real broadsword blades. That made me think the wanted those hilts for easier carrying and mounted them on a blade whatever they found usefull. Well, then we get further into definition and some persist that a specific hilt type is then a spadroon, or spadroon hilt. Buried somewhere in my files is one of those weepers with a British p1796 heavy cavalry blade. In turn the p1796 heavy cavalry blade not so unlike a medieval Oakeshott type X blade in profile. It is, perhaps, to better define a sword as a whole with various traits rather than present a piece as the epitome of a genre. Stirrup hilts, D and P guards, pillow pommels, five ball etc. More and more can be debated but much of it already embedded in publications going back more than a century. I'll dig up the weeper piccie with the heavy cavalry blade but I can't remember where I stashed it. What it is not, is a spadroon. Cheers GC
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Post by pgandy on Aug 29, 2019 19:51:59 GMT
Spadroons were popular with naval officers. Don't forget the navy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 20:24:45 GMT
Not a spadroon (and not an Osborn "weeper") It does have a backstrap.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 20:29:18 GMT
Spadroons were popular with naval officers. Don't forget the navy. Yes and regulation for England and the US (more or less) officers for some decades. See the British 1805-1827, which employs a backstrap. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 22:20:13 GMT
Check out this beauty Matt just came into possession of. It's stunning.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 23:01:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 23:03:21 GMT
Clearing up these terms can be rather difficult. Admittedly, I'm still learning. Lovely hilt on that broadsword of yours. Is the handle ivory?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 23:21:46 GMT
On the subject of slim broadswords, I briefly mentioned the British p1796 heavy cavalry dress sword that the US recycled as an 1832 general officers sword. Here is an example of that on Simon Rycroft's site www.americanswords.com/widmann-1832-1834-general-officer-s-sword.htmlA blade type also used extensively for a few more decades but that same fullered broadsword blade type from those old p1796 hc dress years. Somewhat different than the highland 1828 swords and later example from the UK. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 23:25:14 GMT
Clearing up these terms can be rather difficult. Admittedly, I'm still learning. Lovely hilt on that broadsword of yours. Is the handle ivory? No, it is actually polished bone. It can be difficult to tell sometimes and more apparent with some more than others. Cheers GC
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 29, 2019 23:54:09 GMT
So unless I misunderstand what field service means - the scots used the cross guard for fighting and the basket for dress?
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