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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 0:55:07 GMT
I meant to add this, as I had just pinged Matt a few days ago about his site pages being down, Here are Matt and Nick Thomas (Nick has a FB Spadroon group). My slotted hilt spadroon was my first such sword and of the 1780s. That was followed with my first eagle head spadroon, which rather sucks in handling but is one of my stiffest. The next candidate is what Matt Easton first complained about with First Empire French monture/epee d ville I honestly don't list those as spadroons but they could certainly have bothered a ruffian during a night out. Really though just a bling on a stick. Back to reproductions, there are a few spadroons from Universal Swords, Weapon Edge and Cold Steel. Again I don't own any of them. IIRC, Andi has the Cold Steel and pgandy has had the British 1796. There have been a few mentions of the US m1840 offerings. I somewhat overpaid for my 1864 dated Ames m1840 nco but that was balanced out by my late period 1890s musician sword that had been $110 with scabbard, shipped. To be honest, I like the 28" musician spadroons, as a little quicker but I wouldn't really generally place them very far apart. As mentioned, the hollow ground French hanger from theroyalsword looks da bomb to me and having spent time in discourse with the proprietor regarding the period swords, he put a lot of effort in getting the French line of straight hangers he sells right. The one linked has been on my lists for a long time. Here is my 1864 Ames and a short Roby USMC musician boy example, shorter yet than the standard 28" musicians sword. My late 19th century musician sword was a German import and of the type where the fuller is not full length. My last "true" spadroon in another eagle Then, most times, when you have a spadroon, one must have a sabre to go with it (or vice versus). It is often pairs that affect my sword buying. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 1:22:07 GMT
I definitely do like that line of French reproductions. I would like to add the smallsword to my collection.
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Post by wlewisiii on Aug 29, 2019 1:48:00 GMT
Oh, I _like_ this one. Where is it from?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 2:05:13 GMT
Likely German made but etched to George III.
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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2019 4:20:07 GMT
That short USMC musician boy spadroon made me wonder if spadroons (and even smallswords) were cut down, or cobbled together if a blade tip broke, to make daggers with guards?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 5:01:03 GMT
The nco and musician swords were a popular item to modify for daggers but that short Roby shown is as it was manufactured. These were contracts for a specific pattern manufactured by only a handful of companies. There are many instances and advertisements of ACW swords (the 1850 foot officer especially) sold as cut down knives up through WWII. Quickly, some Pattons and other older cut down sabre bowies. www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/285098-wwii-sword-knives/I have a smallsword blade repurposed as a poinard, see the damascus thread in the medieval section. Cheers GC
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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2019 6:24:09 GMT
I thought so but wasn't sure, as that short Roby got me to thinking, and it just makes sense that you have the makings of a good dagger if needed. Thanx. Is that Roby a bit thicker per percentage of length than the average sized specimens, and if robust enough (and dull/no edge) can it be grabbed and used like an ad hoc Rondell dagger (knowing, of course, that the guard limits grappling grip options)?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 15:29:17 GMT
In today's market, modifying one of the period short musician boy swords would be a waste of a scarce commodity. OTOH, the regular nco and musician swords are still plentiful. To be honest, the reproductions would be cheaper and more rational alternatives to use for such modification. The thought experiment bullcrap really detracts from serious discussion regarding this type of sword and I wish such would be limited to other sections. While not responding to direct questions might seem aloof, my responses to the nonsense are only going to reach a really offensive nature. That said, there were wider bladed versions of what we see of the standard m1840 spadroons and if one wants an even wider blade, go back to the earlier swords that influenced the U.S, ordnance board. As to the short USMC example above, perhaps you'll find the following interesting. www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116089-Odd-Ames-M1840-NCO-Swordwww.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?117174-Short-fuller-M1840-NCO-SwordsRichard has continued to pursue the topics of USMC nco and musician swords, with me pestering him over the years. www.swordforum.com/vb4/member.php?96387-Richard-SchenkChopping up a complete period sword for modern play would be a bit like chopping up a period and complete classic car to make a dune buggy. Parts are parts but there is a limit one might consider. Since the original quest was looking for reproductions, I'd rather regard my offering up original examples as what they are, rather than regarding them as a basis for the "what if" bylines. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 15:40:31 GMT
I would certainly never advocate for modifying an antique example of one of these swords. I am intrigued by the history of these weapons and would enjoy learning more. This has been a fairly thoughtful conversation, I think. Having said that, I am also intrigued by this debate over whether the spadroon is effective at cutting or thrusting, or perhaps neither. Even though my knowledge is scarce, I enjoy witnessing these debates nonetheless. I appreciate the historical context and it will definitely illuminate future discussions of this topic.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 15:43:18 GMT
As for the "thought experiment bullcrap," while it certainly does distract from a fact-based discussion of these weapons and their place in history, it's not illogical. Some people view these weapons as being inferior or poorly designed. It's logical to imagine ways in which they could be improved or modified. I would certainly not do this with antiques, but replicas are definitely fair game. Whether this discussion belongs in this thread is another matter. Perhaps that belongs in the "Sword Customization" thread. It might be helpful to steer the conversation here towards the historical.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 29, 2019 15:57:28 GMT
From my gun collecting days I really hated to see an original “sporterized” as it was called. That is not restricted to firearms. I had mint Mauser, I can’t remember the Model but of no importance. As I wasn’t into Mausers and I don’t know why I had it, probably due to condition maybe the price. I wanted to part with it and get back to my real interest, US military firearms from the beginning of cartridges to and through WWII. A fellow I worked with expressed an interest in the Mauser so I introduce them. He was awed by it. I thought that I’d found it a home and as we talked he made it clear that he was going to cut it up and make a sporter out of it. I about had a heart attack. He didn’t get it.
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Post by pgandy on Aug 29, 2019 16:13:37 GMT
I can’t buy spadroons as being inferior. The people that say this are ignorant regarding spadroons. They may try to use one incorrectly and/or base their opinions on hearsay of others who don’t know. Matt Easton in his first video concerning spadroons bad mouth them. I think his only experience was with the P1796 Infantry Sword. The videos I’ve seen putting down spadroons all involved the P1796 and people think that’s what a spadroon is. A P1796 is a spadroon but a spadroon is not a P1796. That one had a good deal of flex to the blade. In Matt’s second video about spadroons he softened up a bit on spadroons. In his last one, that I know of, he justified the P1796 Infantry Sword’s existents.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 16:26:31 GMT
I can’t buy spadroons as being inferior. The people that say this are ignorant regarding spadroons. They may try to use one incorrectly and/or base their opinions on hearsay of others who don’t know. Matt Easton in his first video concerning spadroons bad mouth them. I think his only experience was with the P1796 Infantry Sword. The videos I’ve seen putting down spadroons all involved the P1796 and people think that’s what a spadroon is. A P1796 is a spadroon but a spadroon is not a P1796. That one had a good deal of flex to the blade. In Matt’s second video about spadroons he softened up a bit on spadroons. In his last one, that I know of, he justified the P1796 Infantry Sword’s existents. I agree with you. A general lack of knowledge coupled with bad assumptions and bad experiences can certainly cause someone to form a negative view of something. That's what I am trying to do away with here: I want to learn more. You guys are being very helpful towards that end and I appreciate it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 16:33:07 GMT
As for the "thought experiment bullcrap," while it certainly does distract from a fact-based discussion of these weapons and their place in history, it's not illogical. Some people view these weapons as being inferior or poorly designed. It's logical to imagine ways in which they could be improved or modified. I would certainly not do this with antiques, but replicas are definitely fair game. Whether this discussion belongs in this thread is another matter. Perhaps that belongs in the "Sword Customization" thread. It might be helpful to steer the conversation here towards the historical. To me, such discussion best placed in a different section such as the overall General section, Fantasy, Tactical, or even Knives and the Cafe. I'm simply pointing out that my replies on the matter will become quite acidic if continued and I'll simply turn off the faucet of reposting images and replies I have posted here many times. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 16:38:30 GMT
As for the "thought experiment bullcrap," while it certainly does distract from a fact-based discussion of these weapons and their place in history, it's not illogical. Some people view these weapons as being inferior or poorly designed. It's logical to imagine ways in which they could be improved or modified. I would certainly not do this with antiques, but replicas are definitely fair game. Whether this discussion belongs in this thread is another matter. Perhaps that belongs in the "Sword Customization" thread. It might be helpful to steer the conversation here towards the historical. To me, such discussion best placed in a different section such as the overall General section, Fantasy, Tactical, or even Knives and the Cafe. I'm simply pointing out that my replies on the matter will become quite acidic if continued and I'll simply turn off the faucet of reposting images and replies I have posted here many times. Cheers GC Thanks for the warning. Your participation is appreciated, but it's not required. If you dislike the direction the thread is taking, rather than become sour about it you could just disengage.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 29, 2019 17:00:51 GMT
For me a spadroon or the whole range of European degen are nimble cut and thrust swords with relative small guards for comfortable EDC. It's good for situations where a smallsword is too flimsy and a pallash is too clumsy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:05:03 GMT
For me a spadroon or the whole range of European degen are nimble cut and thrust swords with relative small guards for comfortable EDC. It's good for situations where a smallsword is too flimsy and a pallash is too clumsy. It definitely seems to be designed for the soldier, not a fighter. Or am I wrong here?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 29, 2019 17:24:18 GMT
Perhaps not designed for aristocratic duellists or heavy cavalry attacks but degen blades found wide spreaded use. It's a bit anglocentric to look only at the special (hilt) form "spadroon". It simply a sword, a light cut and thrust sword, an allrounder.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:25:43 GMT
Matt's first spadroon video, five years ago. His following videos simply track his own continuing education and experience and the thoughts/practical knowledge of Nick Thomas worth looking at his videos if curious. FWIW, I walked away from Nick Thomas' spadroon group on FB. My interests are not being a youtube, or FB expert and I certainly am not presenting myself as an expert of the genre. Yet, at the time five years ago when Matt was exhibiting his first flexy French First Empire epee d ville "stepping out" sword as a spadroon, I was already collecting spadroons of many types and utility. A search on youtube for spadroon with yield plenty of viewing but Matt's first video on the matter kind of speaks volumes. I do not have a collection thread in the designated subforum here out of choice. I have many, many images of spadroons and others on pinterest similarly have oodles of spadroon images. The modern reproduction market is a lot more scant on the spadroon radar and maybe that is a good thing. Most of the offerings aside from the US m1840 and 1796 are plastic grip officer swords and best regarded as costume pieces. Andi can pipe up if he cares to about his Cold Steel five-ball experiences and I would love to hear more impressions of them but my general enthusiasm borders on an elitist "yechhh". Particularly upsetting (visually) is the Universal Swords eaglehead pommel, the Osborn "weeper" vs the period eagle I posted earlier in the thread. Just a really disappointing effort, as far as I can see. www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=USS108&name=American+War+of+1812+Eagle+Head+Spadroonvs Some of the current five ball reproductions do fool the unsuspecting on ebay, so be careful. A collage I put together several years ago (March 2009) gets recirculated as a warning to others. Nick and others tout this as example. I should be flattered but I am rarely referenced and credited. I'll leave this for now with a couple of uploads I have shared here in the past. An old spadroon clipboard file of spadroons drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B9AOFMA8y3ODfkNBQkVwbWtNam9WbVI3VnBtYUFWdlFIOGpFaWJfd2pOdk41Q09jOXdyODQ?usp=sharingAnd similarly another already outdated clipboard file of eaglehead pommel swords 2.0 with lots of spadroons. Keep in mind this is just a clipboard reference file. drive.google.com/drive/folders/1R7gCmCnldPjOKBdprrlNpu-3FaL-GPzd?usp=sharingWhat the hell, while I'm at it, here are all my public files I have uploaded to a cloud if you are bored. Several topics and simply backups to some of my older harvesting of resources. I don't have a working blog, or page but there are some of my past scratch pads. drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B9AOFMA8y3ODejg5OWZxSDVBYVE?usp=sharingSo yes, do carry on in whatever manner you care to. I'll just stop contributing more unless asked. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:31:18 GMT
This has been a really illuminating conversation and the volume of information is overwhelming. I will spend the evening trying to digest some of it. I really appreciate the input.
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