thomasthesecond
Member
"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
Posts: 153
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 9, 2019 9:38:59 GMT
One could argue that they are just in this practice, because they chose to find another way versus breaking the law. "Law" and "justice" are two entirely different things, like apples and the color orange. Holmganga Bersi may have been a lawful little berserker, but there's nothing just about extortion. I meant just as in simply - I apologize for the lack of clarity in that post, though I completely agree. Similarly to how what's "fair" and what's "just" are about as interchangeable as coffee and rat poison.
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Post by MOK on Aug 9, 2019 11:44:11 GMT
"Law" and "justice" are two entirely different things, like apples and the color orange. Holmganga Bersi may have been a lawful little berserker, but there's nothing just about extortion. I meant just as in simply - I apologize for the lack of clarity in that post, though I completely agree. Similarly to how what's "fair" and what's "just" are about as interchangeable as coffee and rat poison. Oh! Right, sorry. The comma, threw me off.
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thomasthesecond
Member
"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
Posts: 153
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 9, 2019 11:45:48 GMT
I meant just as in simply - I apologize for the lack of clarity in that post, though I completely agree. Similarly to how what's "fair" and what's "just" are about as interchangeable as coffee and rat poison. Oh! Right, sorry. The comma, threw me off. I noticed that after you quoted me, no worries brother man!
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Aug 9, 2019 14:12:02 GMT
The Norse themselves quickly realized that career holmgangery was bad and made it illegal in most places long before the holmgang went away entirely.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 9, 2019 19:54:28 GMT
In English law, the practice of Trial by Combat is supposedly the origin of the use of lawyers. Though I don't think that's entirely accurate, it would be fun to have lawyers dueling it out in non-lethal ways as a form of arbitration. IIRC there was an episode of "Sliders" that proposed this alternative reality where they were literally hired guns.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 9, 2019 20:42:20 GMT
Pretty sure that happened in "Always Sunny in Philadelphia" too.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 9, 2019 20:43:36 GMT
The Norse themselves quickly realized that career holmgangery was bad and made it illegal in most places long before the holmgang went away entirely. Unfortunately morons in Germany have made an extremely amateur attempt in the revival of dueling with sharp swords, "Holmgang Hamburg".
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Post by elbrittania39 on Aug 9, 2019 20:49:37 GMT
The Norse themselves quickly realized that career holmgangery was bad and made it illegal in most places long before the holmgang went away entirely. Unfortunately morons in Germany have made an extremely amateur attempt in the revival of dueling with sharp swords, "Holmgang Hamburg". I've seen those morons. It's like they don't get swords were real weapons, not toys. Imagine if a millennia from now people were playing "paint ball" with live ammo. Makes as much sense.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Aug 9, 2019 21:51:00 GMT
In English law, the practice of Trial by Combat is supposedly the origin of the use of lawyers. Though I don't think that's entirely accurate, it would be fun to have lawyers dueling it out in non-lethal ways as a form of arbitration. IIRC there was an episode of "Sliders" that proposed this alternative reality where they were literally hired guns. Why non-lethal with lawyers? Might be good if lethal, less litigation.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 10, 2019 0:22:34 GMT
That's the spirit!
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Post by demented on Feb 12, 2020 8:39:11 GMT
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 12, 2020 15:16:30 GMT
One could argue that they are just in this practice, because they chose to find another way versus breaking the law. "Law" and "justice" are two entirely different things, like apples and the color orange. Holmganga Bersi may have been a lawful little berserker, but there's nothing just about extortion. IMHO, a large part of this entire discussion could be settled by Googling "adversarial system". Champions have been replaced by lawyers, so now professional warriors are replaced by professional sophists, but the historical abuses of the system continue.
A related misunderstanding/confusion, as MOK implies, involves differing concepts between " Δίκη", "justicia", and "leges".
BTW, in practice, medieval judicial duels were usually well-organized public spectacles, hedged about with legal restrictions.
It might be wise if we concentrate on the historical context, before we drift any closer to current politics.
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Post by demented on Feb 12, 2020 15:34:56 GMT
"Law" and "justice" are two entirely different things, like apples and the color orange. Holmganga Bersi may have been a lawful little berserker, but there's nothing just about extortion. IMHO, a large part of this entire discussion could be settled by Googling "adversarial system". Champions have been replaced by lawyers, so now professional warriors are replaced by professional sophists, but the historical abuses of the system continue.
A related misunderstanding/confusion, as MOK implies, involves differing concepts between " Δίκη", "justicia", and "leges".
BTW, in practice, medieval judicial duels were usually well-organized public spectacles, hedged about with legal restrictions.
I agree with most of this. Judicial duels/trial by combat rules varied depending on when and where it took place though. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combatAn example of a real judicial duel from the year 1386 : en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Carrougeslook under legal proceedings and trial by combat. Basically a guy raped another guys wife while he was away on business and they settled it in a trial by combat.
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seth
Member
Just Peachy
Posts: 971
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Post by seth on Feb 12, 2020 18:22:28 GMT
That's an interesting read. If I were in Carrouges's shoes, I would want the same opportunity. I am one of the aforementioned professional sophists, and I have been challenged to fight by another professional sophist. I said I would be waiting, and he never showed...
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 12, 2020 19:37:25 GMT
As I understand it, the German states were more likely to do these things in plain clothes. The Italians and possible French and English were more likely to wear harness. But there's not enough primary source information to know for certain. We just have the fight books and a reference from an Italian source about how the cray cray Germans fight to the death in no armor.
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Post by demented on Feb 12, 2020 20:19:34 GMT
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Post by demented on Feb 12, 2020 20:32:42 GMT
As I understand it, the German states were more likely to do these things in plain clothes. The Italians and possible French and English were more likely to wear harness. But there's not enough primary source information to know for certain. We just have the fight books and a reference from an Italian source about how the cray cray Germans fight to the death in no armor. That's what I've heard too. Paulus Kal and Talhoffer I think made some remarks on it but it's purely speculative at this point, if I remember correctly. I'm not a Fiorist. Were any of his duels judicial? Didn't he talk about unarmored duels?
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 12, 2020 20:58:54 GMT
He talked about fighting the false masters, but I don't think it's clear whether this was a formal challenge overseen by a judge or a situation where he smashed the sign in front of their dojo and laughed at their kung fu. Apparently there are 16th century Italian sources describing armored judicial duels in much greater detail.
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