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Post by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2019 15:52:24 GMT
Hi Adrian Jordan & MOK
It sounds like there are a couple of possibilities that could cause it to bend, but it sounds like they are not very common. However, knowing that it IS possible is good to know.
If a manufacturer noticed that a sword curved after the tempering process was complete, do you know how they would fix it? Would they just bend it back as was suggested to me (I have read this has the potential to weaken the blade) or would they heat it up and retemper it? And, if it was retempered, could retempering it potentially lead to the blade warping again or weaken the blade?
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Post by MOK on Aug 4, 2019 16:03:20 GMT
Depends on the nature and amount of the warping. If it's really dramatic and occurs all along the blade's length, yeah, I think they'd want to redo the heat treat. If it's slight and/or localized, just bending it carefully to shape might work... but I think I'd still want them to re-temper it to ease the tensions that caused the warping in the first place. Fortunately, I don't think quenching the blade anew would be necessary, as that would be a lot riskier (it's where most warping and sabering happens).
PS. In any case, doing it with heat would be much safer all around.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 16:09:19 GMT
A bent blade is a bent blade. If you received a bent blade and are at all concerned about the issue, return the sword. A manufacturer suggesting you can bend a blade straight is not standing behind their product. A manufacturer suggesting a bent blade is a normality one should live with is not providing proper customer service. Depending on the heat treatment, there is no way for a customer to safely straighten a blade without proper education and experience.
If you can not provide them clear indication (pictures) that is the case, then there is a hurdle you need to address with them. Rust can occur inside a plastic wrapped sword and chances are it had been wrapped for some time but condensation does occur. You are providing only superficial information which will only lead to a twenty question game. Box it up and get store credit or a full refund. Or request a replacement. Document opening packages whenever you feel you might be concerned.
Why even question a return if it is possible and the issues exist?
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Post by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2019 16:12:22 GMT
Hi nternal085,
No worries, skepticism is healthy. If the content of my post would be considered unusual or inappropriate for someone who is new to the forum, then please forgive the offense as none was intended.
Just for the record though, my motivation was as thomasthesecond and rannh1 have stated. I couldn't find the answer by searching through the forum and figured it would be a good opportunity to join and see what more experienced people had to say.
I hope that my attempt to focus on the situation rather than the manufacturer will help lead this thread in the intended direction which was to find out what could possibly happen to a sword during shipping to cause its condition to degrade.
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Post by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2019 16:25:10 GMT
Depends on the nature and amount of the warping. If it's really dramatic and occurs all along the blade's length, yeah, I think they'd want to redo the heat treat. If it's slight and/or localized, just bending it carefully to shape might work... but I think I'd still want them to re-temper it to ease the tensions that caused the warping in the first place. Fortunately, I don't think quenching the blade anew would be necessary, as that would be a lot riskier (it's where most warping and sabering happens). PS. In any case, doing it with heat would be much safer all around. Makes sense. In my reply to the manufacturer from a couple days ago, I asked for a replacement because I intend to keep it for many years and I didn't want to start out with a sword that is potentially compromised when I paid for a new and undamaged sword. The sword also has markings on the blade that I would not want to be damaged by repairs. In your opinion, do you think a repair through retempering could cause any future problems with warping or potential damage to the markings?
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Post by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2019 16:43:23 GMT
A bent blade is a bent blade. If you received a bent blade and are at all concerned about the issue, return the sword. A manufacturer suggesting you can bend a blade straight is not standing behind their product. A manufacturer suggesting a bent blade is a normality one should live with is not providing proper customer service. Depending on the heat treatment, there is no way for a customer to safely straighten a blade without proper education and experience. If you can not provide them clear indication (pictures) that is the case, then there is a hurdle you need to address with them. Rust can occur inside a plastic wrapped sword and chances are it had been wrapped for some time but condensation does occur. You are providing only superficial information which will only lead to a twenty question game. Box it up and get store credit or a full refund. Or request a replacement. Document opening packages whenever you feel you might be concerned. Why even question a return if it is possible and the issues exist? I feel the same. I did send a picture of the blade to the manufacturer, but I am not sure if they looked at it or not. I know that the company I work for does not allow attachments to be opened due to the potential for viruses so maybe they could not open it. Regardless of whether they have looked at the picture or not, they have not disputed the degree of the bend with me. They have so far only indicated that they sent it out straight and that they believe I used it. For the record, I judged the sword blade to be about 5-10 degrees off center. I don't know if this is small enough to be considered acceptable by manufacturers, but it is definitely noticeable when you hold the blade out and it bothers me. For something I purchased intending to keep it for years, I don't want to see that every time I look at it.
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Post by MOK on Aug 4, 2019 16:50:14 GMT
5-10 degrees is a pretty big warp. I wouldn't be happy with that, myself, and I have a tendency to take manufacturing flaws as a DIY challenge...
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Post by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2019 17:16:38 GMT
5-10 degrees is a pretty big warp. I wouldn't be happy with that, myself, and I have a tendency to take manufacturing flaws as a DIY challenge... I did consider the idea of trying to bend it back as they suggested. But these are my reasons for not doing so: 1. If they are already saying that it is my responsibility to resolve when I had just received it a few hours before emailing them about the issue and were saying that they could not be sure what abuse it had received from me, then how would they respond if I actually damaged it trying to fix it myself. 2. Of my still small collection, this will be the most I have spent on a single sword and, out of the box, it has more defects than any of the others I own. I am still learning about swords and am not sure of their tolerances such as how far or how long to bend the sword to try to fix the bend and not make the problem worse. With the blade being bent along its entire length, I figure this has the potential to go wrong in multiple ways. So I might be able to fix this myself, but I would rather take risks with a sword that matters less to me.
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Post by MOK on Aug 4, 2019 17:25:21 GMT
Yeah, that all makes good sense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 17:36:08 GMT
As soon as you mess with trying to straighten it, the sooner you own it warts and all. Your initial posts indicates a return is possible. Any other considerations would be off the table and not really debatable. A manufacturer telling someone to straighten one of their blades is not at all being truthful about their product.
Just lay the blade flat on a straight surface and measure the bow. Saying you sent email via your workplace and that is why a picture was not seen seems a bit of a misstep in your own communications. Call them up and talk to them throughout the process. Email is not how I would proceed.
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Post by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2019 17:49:46 GMT
As soon as you mess with trying to straighten it, the sooner you own it warts and all. Your initial posts indicates a return is possible. Any other considerations would be off the table and not really debatable. A manufacturer telling someone to straighten one of their blades is not at all being truthful about their product. Just lay the blade flat on a straight surface and measure the bow. Saying you sent email via your workplace and that is why a picture was not seen seems a bit of a misstep in your own communications. Call them up and talk to them throughout the process. Email is not how I would proceed. Sorry if I did not communicate my actions clearly. What I was trying to say is that I sent them an email from home which included a picture of the bend, so they should have received the attachment unless their own mail server blocked it. I mentioned my work regulations as a way of explaining why I thought that might have occurred.
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Post by MOK on Aug 4, 2019 17:50:56 GMT
As soon as you mess with trying to straighten it, the sooner you own it warts and all. Your initial posts indicates a return is possible. Any other considerations would be off the table and not really debatable. A manufacturer telling someone to straighten one of their blades is not at all being truthful about their product. Just lay the blade flat on a straight surface and measure the bow. Saying you sent email via your workplace and that is why a picture was not seen seems a bit of a misstep in your own communications. Call them up and talk to them throughout the process. Email is not how I would proceed. Well, email has the advantage of establishing a documented "paper trail", but some companies do respond more promptly (and sometimes more favorably, even) to personal talks over the phone...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 17:57:42 GMT
As soon as you mess with trying to straighten it, the sooner you own it warts and all. Your initial posts indicates a return is possible. Any other considerations would be off the table and not really debatable. A manufacturer telling someone to straighten one of their blades is not at all being truthful about their product. Just lay the blade flat on a straight surface and measure the bow. Saying you sent email via your workplace and that is why a picture was not seen seems a bit of a misstep in your own communications. Call them up and talk to them throughout the process. Email is not how I would proceed. Well, email has the advantage of establishing a documented "paper trail", but some companies do respond more promptly (and sometimes more favorably, even) to personal talks over the phone... Yes, both are easily ignored. By all means available. An unresponsive CS in either format is unacceptable.
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Post by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2019 18:07:54 GMT
Well, email has the advantage of establishing a documented "paper trail", but some companies do respond more promptly (and sometimes more favorably, even) to personal talks over the phone... Yes, both are easily ignored. By all means available. An unresponsive CS in either format is unacceptable. I did actually try calling them once in April to ask some questions before placing the order, but I got their voicemail. So, I emailed them instead and I have continued communicating through that original email chain since then. I might have just called at a bad time, but I stick with email because it worked for me first.
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Post by Darth Paunch on Aug 4, 2019 20:05:34 GMT
Admitted; i just felt a clear-up might be necessary. I knew it wasn't you Kumpel Attachments:
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 4, 2019 22:13:41 GMT
I have a couple questions I'm not sure I've seen addressed.
1) Acknowledging the intent to keep names out of the discussion, have we learned what type of sword this is? Is it a katana? Through-hardened? Differentially? Some other single-edge sword (falchion, messer, etc) or something double-edged?
2) Was the scabbard also visibly bent, or only the blade within? Different climates can warp some woods, and a bending scabbard will take the sword's blade with it. Left like this long enough, the bend will become "permanent" (there is no such thing as a permanent bend) but it would have been noticable before removing the sword from its scabbard.
Otherwise, you've done everything right on your end. You reported a defective product immediately, and were summarily accused of causing the problem yourself. Not the first time I've heard of a manufacturer doing this. One unnamed manufacturer that was popular years ago (spearheaded 9260 as a "super steel") has disclaimers on their website that amount to, basically, "Defects happen, deal with it. If you break it, it's your fault."
Not the most appealing stance to take, but I'm not sure it's cost them much business. People buy or don't buy on reputation, good or bad. Buy from someone with an iffy rep? Expect to be disappointed. Get treated badly? Denied a refund on a defective product? Take it up with whoever you paid them through. Credit card, PayPal, whatever, most will have means to get your money back for you.
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Post by whattheheck on Aug 5, 2019 13:24:14 GMT
I have a couple questions I'm not sure I've seen addressed. 1) Acknowledging the intent to keep names out of the discussion, have we learned what type of sword this is? Is it a katana? Through-hardened? Differentially? Some other single-edge sword (falchion, messer, etc) or something double-edged? 2) Was the scabbard also visibly bent, or only the blade within? Different climates can warp some woods, and a bending scabbard will take the sword's blade with it. Left like this long enough, the bend will become "permanent" (there is no such thing as a permanent bend) but it would have been noticable before removing the sword from its scabbard. Otherwise, you've done everything right on your end. You reported a defective product immediately, and were summarily accused of causing the problem yourself. Not the first time I've heard of a manufacturer doing this. One unnamed manufacturer that was popular years ago (spearheaded 9260 as a "super steel") has disclaimers on their website that amount to, basically, "Defects happen, deal with it. If you break it, it's your fault." Not the most appealing stance to take, but I'm not sure it's cost them much business. People buy or don't buy on reputation, good or bad. Buy from someone with an iffy rep? Expect to be disappointed. Get treated badly? Denied a refund on a defective product? Take it up with whoever you paid them through. Credit card, PayPal, whatever, most will have means to get your money back for you. 1. It is a straight double-edged European style sword which is dual hardened per the manufacturer. 2. The sword was shipped with essentially a cardboard scabbard which was then wrapped heavily in plastic. I don't believe it was ever stored in the actual scabbard as it has a hard time fitting due to the curve of the blade compared to the straight scabbard. I have not kept it in the scabbard since it arrived as I am concerned that the bent sword might bend the wood in the scabbard. Regarding payment, I had something happen several years ago in which I never received a product I paid for with a credit card and I spoke with the credit card company about it at the time. Their stance was that they would not address the issue because they did not consider it fraud since I had made the payment instead of having my card number stolen or used without my knowledge. Perhaps with the growth of internet scams since then they have changed their stance. I will do my best to work this out with the manufacturer before looking into this kind of action, but it is a good suggestion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 13:52:37 GMT
Eyal should honor a return/replacement. There is little need to be coy as to the source. It is more important that respondents remain respectful and to the point. The entire myth of them dual hardening to their claimed hardness is a problem with them stating you should "fix" the warp yourself. Few are equipped to deal with this. A flex would have to far exceed the bend in the opposite direction. There are tools but the end result is you then do own their problems.
There is no reason to not believe your story but it is really between you and the producer. There has generally been success with resolution when dealing with the company (that is all too apparent from your first post). You should not be expected to fix their problem. Even if the warp occurred in transport (truly unlikely), any claim for damage is the shipper's responsibility and not yours. The sword must be returned in the same state you received it and in original packing.
What you have not clarified is if the item was bought direct from the source or through a retailer. Also not mentioned is whether it was shipped within the same country. Canadian law may differ somewhat from US law but if you are going to pursue the issue, a province or state attorney is going to offer a better result than just reviews and the better business sites.
Once returned, and in agreement, a replacement or refund minus re-stocking is acceptable. However, shipping costs may all end up being your cost. IMO, Eyal should eat the shipping costs but if going between the US and Canada, you can see how eager it might seem for the producer that you not seek restitution at all.
Sad but true. The producer has been known to step up to the plate and offer very good customer service. If it was bought through a vendor, the issues compound.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 14:03:37 GMT
I also want to address flex testing, as the touted video shows showmanship but also extreme folly. Such videos prompt buyers to flex their own swords but even well tempered blades suffer in these demonstrations. The over the head strongman posing is also ironically dangerous. Forcing a flex damages blades. More on this elsewhere but it is really a case of just say no.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 5, 2019 16:58:37 GMT
Depends on the nature and amount of the warping. If it's really dramatic and occurs all along the blade's length, yeah, I think they'd want to redo the heat treat. If it's slight and/or localized, just bending it carefully to shape might work... but I think I'd still want them to re-temper it to ease the tensions that caused the warping in the first place. Fortunately, I don't think quenching the blade anew would be necessary, as that would be a lot riskier (it's where most warping and sabering happens). PS. In any case, doing it with heat would be much safer all around. If it came out of the tempering process and is bent, especially near the forte or in a thick part of the blade you really do run the risk of ruining the blade by trying to correct the set. I've had it happen that the blade simply loses the ability to flex in that region. If it's across the whole thing you might as well just throw it out/return it with a modern production piece if they let it ship like that, it's not like it's a custom maker or an antique.
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