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Post by spikeynorman47 on Jul 26, 2019 21:03:20 GMT
Swords are often categorized by their typology and time period.
However would a sword from a previous time period be seen on battle fields? Obviously the social elite would have the best available, but would lower status people have older types?
If so, how far back do you theorize it would go? Would a soldier in the mid 15th century find themselves using a type XII blade normally seen in the 13th century?
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 26, 2019 21:07:37 GMT
200 years is a long time to try and maintain a functional steel blade, particularly if it sees significant use. It's certainly possible, but I don't know that it would have ever been common.
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Post by spikeynorman47 on Jul 26, 2019 21:39:33 GMT
200 years is a long time to try and maintain a functional steel blade, particularly if it sees significant use. It's certainly possible, but I don't know that it would have ever been common. Perhaps maybe 20-30 years? A blade made around the time of Agincourt could possibly seen in the very beginning of the Wars of the Roses maybe?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 26, 2019 21:49:37 GMT
20-30 years later? Heck, I’ve seen that in my own life time.
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christain
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Post by christain on Jul 26, 2019 21:54:39 GMT
Speaking as a Texan, I'm sure Jim Bowie's original knife is just as sharp and ready as it was at the Alamo....wherever it is. Who knows for sure?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 26, 2019 22:00:02 GMT
It depends on the armor you expect your opponents to wear. Cutting swords were usefull for 2000 years until armor became too strong. If I'd go into battle against men in mail and plate I'd throw away my grandfathers XII and want a XV or XVII If I'd hunt poor bandits the heritage sword still would work.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jul 27, 2019 3:41:38 GMT
That's a very interesting question....
If we compare swords to guns, the 1911 design is still in widespread use over one hundred years after it's creation. I'm certain there was the odd antique sword that was used by someone who didn't have anything else or who didn't care. I picked up a Dresye M1907 pistol in a local pawn shop earlier this year. Still shot without any work on it, but had a bit of trouble chambering (probably nothing a new magazine wouldn't fix).
The question is, did sword designs become obsolete after a certain period of time? If yes, what made them obsolete? Armor innovation?
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stormmaster
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Post by stormmaster on Jul 27, 2019 3:50:48 GMT
sword blades were often redone with new fittings over the centuries, take the Joyeuse sword for example in the Louvre
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Post by nddave on Jul 28, 2019 4:27:12 GMT
It really depends on the general sword type. Most sword types tended to have long lifespans (around 2 centuries) of use. Many sword types were used in the same time periods as well. For example Types (and their subtypes) X, XI, XII, XIII, and XIV can be seen in use throughout the 12th-14th centuries. Or Types XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX and XX swords seeing use between the 14th and 16th centuries. So yes there was definite overlap of sword types through the middle ages. Of course armor as was mentioned played a big part in what sword types were used but also you have to remember that most swords were commissioned by a regent or benefactor. This means rather than an individual owning a sword a lord, king, emperor etc, would issue out swords and other arms to those called to service. So pretty much you got what was given to you be that a older or newer sword.
Also armor was just as expensive if not more than swords or other arms. So not every soldier was equipped with full plate or even a mail shirt. So in that regard a earlier cut focused sword wouldn't be out of place in a later period battle. In regards to the typology itself, I think a lot of people misconstrue the typology as chronological in its numbering. For example a type XVII was used after a Type XVI, when in reality they were used during the same time periods or even later or earlier than their numerical order.
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Post by MOK on Jul 28, 2019 9:59:58 GMT
Sure, this happened sometimes. There's a famous example in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword of a Xa made around 1100 and re-hilted around 1450, for example (Xa.17, page 52). And however you date it, the original model of Albion's "The Vigil" was a bit behind its times, stylistically speaking... Plus, of course, all those ancient heirlooms widely praised in Norse sagas and such - early iron age sources often clearly imply that the older a blade was, as long as it was still in good condition, the more prestigious it was. Perhaps because the more removed and obscured in time and place an item's origin is, the easier it is to ascribe wondrous mystical properties to it and its creator... I think the long and short of much of it is that some blades survived long enough to become unfashionable, and then long enough to be fashionably old-fashioned, and sometimes people made deliberate "retro" copies of these once-again-fashionable "vintage" items. Hipsters have always existed. Plus, sometimes the ever changing circumstances just turned in favor of old-fashioned things. Look at, for example, the re-popularization of broad cutting blades when body armor begins to fade from common use during the 16th-17th Centuries.
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christain
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Post by christain on Jul 28, 2019 10:09:13 GMT
It seems like I remember reading somewhere about a Scottish 2-handed claymore being used at the Battle of Culloden. That must have been a sight among all the basket hilts and other 'newer' swords.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2019 12:31:03 GMT
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Post by nddave on Jul 28, 2019 12:34:43 GMT
It seems like I remember reading somewhere about a Scottish 2-handed claymore being used at the Battle of Culloden. That must have been a sight among all the basket hilts and other 'newer' swords. Actually regarding the Claymore, the Battle of Culloden would have been the actual time frame Claymores were at the height of their use. Its a misconception that Claymores were used in earlier periods (late 13th-15th century) when in fact they were more prominent post Renaissance (17th-18th century).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 28, 2019 14:11:05 GMT
From Wikipedia
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 28, 2019 16:13:23 GMT
sword blades were often redone with new fittings over the centuries, take the Joyeuse sword for example in the Louvre Surely, you aren't suggesting that any part of that sword actually belonged to Big Chuck, right? ...right?
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 28, 2019 16:35:56 GMT
Speaking as a Texan, I'm sure Jim Bowie's original knife is just as sharp and ready as it was at the Alamo....wherever it is. Who knows for sure? Speaking as a Texan, I'm sure that as the cloud of gun-smoke cleared a dying Jim Bowie placed the handle of his much-storied-knife into the small hands of Enrique Esparza, and told him to cast it into a pool of calm water. Young Enrique began to protest, but Jim reached out with a single blood-smeared finger and lay it across the boy's lips to silence him. Some say that when the boy finally found a pool of water as described by Bowie that the white clad arm of La Llorona stretched out of the water to catch it, and that the boy was so scared he completely forgot the location of the lake. Others suggest that the descendants of Enrique Esparza still have the legendary weapon in their care, and that one day, when a truly worthy successor is born they will pass on the blade along with a charge of noblesse oblige for the poor and downtrodden.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 28, 2019 22:29:28 GMT
Imagine being a British officer with a smallsword or spadroon, and seeing some hulking scot with that thing barreling towards your squad. Yikes.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 28, 2019 22:38:30 GMT
I think we have a winner! I think rebellions would be the most likely area where older swords and weapons would be used. That and colonial warfare.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 28, 2019 23:00:19 GMT
Imagine being a British officer with a smallsword or spadroon, and seeing some hulking scot with that thing barreling towards your squad. Yikes. I'm still laughing.
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Post by wlewisiii on Jul 28, 2019 23:05:47 GMT
Speaking as a Texan, I'm sure Jim Bowie's original knife is just as sharp and ready as it was at the Alamo....wherever it is. Who knows for sure? Speaking as a Texan, I'm sure that as the cloud of gun-smoke cleared a dying Jim Bowie placed the handle of his much-storied-knife into the small hands of E nrique Esparza, and told him to cast it into a pool of calm water. Young Enrique began to protest, but Jim reached out with a single blood-smeared finger and lay it across the boy's lips to silence him. Some say that when the boy finally found a pool of water as described by Bowie that the white clad arm of La Llorona stretched out of the water to catch it, and that the boy was so scared he completely forgot the location of the lake. Others suggest that the descendants of Enrique Esparza still have the legendary weapon in their care, and that one day, when a truly worthy successor is born they will pass on the blade along with a charge of noblesse oblige for the poor and downtrodden. Ok, where's the +1 button. We need it for this one
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