thomasthesecond
Member
"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
Posts: 153
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 15, 2019 4:00:54 GMT
He's been accumulating examples and posts on the topic from time to time. I don't think anyone has done a systematic study of all similar era blades on this question. But it will be interesting to see how it hashes out as more examples arise. I'm always interested in his theories, and he takes a lot of unfair heat for speculating when, in fact, we're all speculating the moment we start to do anything with pre-14th century blades. There are no sources showing us how to use them. It's better to have some level of theory and testing than to simply assume a standard way of doing things. For example, why is hammer grip viewed as the default? Nobody proposed that as a theory. It's just the way most modern people hold the swords from the 8th to 11th centuries. It has some merit to it, but nobody seems to have tested it or compared it before concluding it was the default setting for holding swords. Dimicator has done some testing and experimenting with this, and has formed a theory and come to the conclusion that the hammer grip i NOT likely the way trained swordsman used blades during that time.
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thomasthesecond
Member
"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
Posts: 153
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 15, 2019 4:02:24 GMT
Yeah, I fully agree with that. There's nothing wrong about a handmade thing looking handmade - it's all those little inconsequential irregularities that give a thing character. I feel like thats an aquired opinion. I agree with you, though I do remember a time when I thought asword was supposed to be perfet in every aspect. After awhile, I began to think that it made them look almost.. Fake?
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Post by MOK on Aug 15, 2019 8:18:14 GMT
Yeah, I fully agree with that. There's nothing wrong about a handmade thing looking handmade - it's all those little inconsequential irregularities that give a thing character. I feel like thats an aquired opinion. I agree with you, though I do remember a time when I thought asword was supposed to be perfet in every aspect. After awhile, I began to think that it made them look almost.. Fake? Even ideal perfection is completely subjective, material perfection is always an illusion that breaks down if you just look closely enough, and both get boring after the novelty wears off, anyway. Therefore, perfection itself is imperfect. Which is just as fine, because what really matters is what's perfect for me. Of course, sloppy work is still sloppy. There's a rather marked difference between not stressing about perfection and not caring about doing a good job.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 10:44:40 GMT
He's been accumulating examples and posts on the topic from time to time. I don't think anyone has done a systematic study of all similar era blades on this question. But it will be interesting to see how it hashes out as more examples arise. I'm always interested in his theories, and he takes a lot of unfair heat for speculating when, in fact, we're all speculating the moment we start to do anything with pre-14th century blades. There are no sources showing us how to use them. It's better to have some level of theory and testing than to simply assume a standard way of doing things. For example, why is hammer grip viewed as the default? Nobody proposed that as a theory. It's just the way most modern people hold the swords from the 8th to 11th centuries. It has some merit to it, but nobody seems to have tested it or compared it before concluding it was the default setting for holding swords. Dimicator has done some testing and experimenting with this, and has formed a theory and come to the conclusion that the hammer grip i NOT likely the way trained swordsman used blades during that time. A common enough experiment and theory Gripping and using a Viking sword myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2478Cheers GC
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Post by legacyofthesword on Aug 15, 2019 15:31:49 GMT
Dimicator has done some testing and experimenting with this, and has formed a theory and come to the conclusion that the hammer grip i NOT likely the way trained swordsman used blades during that time. A common enough experiment and theory Gripping and using a Viking sword myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2478Cheers GC And yet tulwars, many Bronze Age swords, and most gladius cannot practically be used with any kind of grip besides a hammer grip....
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 16:19:26 GMT
Well, yes one can with the index finger over the guard. Note, none of them have long cruciform guards and are not primarily defensive in nature worrying about blade contact at the foible. Most purely slashing and thrusting against humans, not other weapons, shields and armour. The gladius perhaps an exception except that a lot of reproductions are still making round guards. Also that they were possibly limited to chop and under thrust but a well profiled guard certainly allows shifting of your hand.
At any rate, I really didn't present the link and old quote from Roland to further a debate, simply pointing out that Roland wasn't really breaking any glass ceilings of opinion, that many years after that discussion began.
Cheers GC
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 15, 2019 18:00:59 GMT
He's been accumulating examples and posts on the topic from time to time. I don't think anyone has done a systematic study of all similar era blades on this question. But it will be interesting to see how it hashes out as more examples arise. I'm always interested in his theories, and he takes a lot of unfair heat for speculating when, in fact, we're all speculating the moment we start to do anything with pre-14th century blades. There are no sources showing us how to use them. It's better to have some level of theory and testing than to simply assume a standard way of doing things. For example, why is hammer grip viewed as the default? Nobody proposed that as a theory. It's just the way most modern people hold the swords from the 8th to 11th centuries. It has some merit to it, but nobody seems to have tested it or compared it before concluding it was the default setting for holding swords. Dimicator has done some testing and experimenting with this, and has formed a theory and come to the conclusion that the hammer grip i NOT likely the way trained swordsman used blades during that time. He's a friend of mine and I've trained with him, so I've been hearing his theories for many years. His long aristocratic fingers can kind of envelop the whole pommel. And his theory is one response to the ongoing mystery of why the heck viking period blades have such tiny grips. But it's not the only response. It's also possible that it was intended to restrict hand movement, limiting the sword to simple cuts and thrusts while ensuring a solid handhold. This is something that runs counter to late medieval swordplay, but given the primacy of the shield it's not impossible. Both methods work, though his method allows the blade to be used much more like a 14th century arming sword or messer.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 15, 2019 18:06:55 GMT
The illustration, like almost all of them from this period, is ambiguous. You can read this as showing a handshake grip. But you can also read it as showing a "broken wrist" position which occurs when you flatten out a blow with a hammer grip. Obviously it's martially better to not break your wrist structure on a cut like that. But does that mean they weren't doing it in the early medieval?
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 15, 2019 19:56:13 GMT
I am a factual guy so I would like to see some statistical data to show how common the twisted pommels are.
3 out of 3
3 out of 10 3 out of 100 3 out of 1,000 3 out of 10,000
I think getting statistical data to back up your findings is very important thing. Especially if you are making new claims that might change the common thinking.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 23, 2019 8:02:44 GMT
Im a big fan of Roland on many of his concepts and theories, especially concerning how nodes aid in the swords rotations and strikes. They are really practical when learning the right movements with cutting, especially push cuts.
That being said, his stuff tends to get a little bit on the experimental side for me. Perhaps he's right, perhaps he's not, but I find some stuff just doesn't work for me, and a lot of gripping styles tend to get a little dianty for my liking
I'm also not too big into the bind related stuff.
But I still consider myself a fan of his work
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Post by TheOneTrueLance on Sept 17, 2019 3:43:43 GMT
I have a Gus Trim Knights sword that came with a crooked pommel... I look at it and feel bad every time. They told me it was normal and I couldn’t return it... I have 6 $200-600 blades and it’s the only one with a crooked pommel. It’s definitely a build quality issue in my opinion.
I don’t believe it was an intentional thing.
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