thomasthesecond
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 2:26:38 GMT
I have always been a fan of Roland Warzecha, a student of the sword and very long time practitioner out of Germany in the school Dimicator.
I vaguely remembered him proposing the possibility that sword pommels are meant to be crooked, to aid in the comfortability of their proper use.
So I fell down the rabbit hole that is looking through several of his posts on patreon, facebook, and YouTube.
Not only does he state that more viking swords have crooked pommels than not, he also shows several later period swords that show the same thing(single handed swords only, I believe).
Not only this, but he states that after about the 11th century, the focus on having swords with tightly fitting guards almost disappeared.
So as it turns out, Albion may be less historically accurate than windless and DSA.
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Post by leviathansteak on Jul 26, 2019 2:53:39 GMT
Its an interesting theory that he has. It would certainly make certain pommel shapes more comfortable in the hand if true.
However i am of the opinion that a great advantage of these flattened shapes (e.g. wheel, brazil nut) is that they aid in edge alignment.
Therefore, having the pommel rotated out of alignment with the blade seems that it would partially nullify this advantage.
Or it could be that they are arent there for edge alignment at all but rather to secure the hand in a cut. In which case his twisted pommel theory would make sense
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 26, 2019 2:53:52 GMT
I have always been a fan of Roland Warzecha, a student of the sword and very long time practitioner out of Germany in the school Dimicator. I vaguely remembered him proposing the possibility that sword pommels are meant to be crooked, to aid in the comfortability of their proper use. So I fell down the rabbit hole that is looking through several of his posts on patreon, facebook, and YouTube. Not only does he state that more viking swords have crooked pommels than not, he also shows several later period swords that show the same thing(single handed swords only, I believe). Not only this, but he states that after about the 11th century, the focus on having swords with tightly fitting guards almost disappeared. So as it turns out, Albion may be less historically accurate than windless and DSA. I like Roland and all, but I also have faith in Peter Johnsson's expertise. I can buy that some swords had canted pommels, especially with Viking Age sword hilts, but to extrapolate that out to Medieval single hand swords, and as the norm, is going to take a lot of supporting evidence. As to poorly fitted guards, we have better tools, measuring systems, and fault tolerances than any prior generation. Deliberately making a suboptimal weapon, because historicity, is certainly not my cup of tea. It will be a cold day in Niflheim (aren't they all), before I buy a Deepeeka sword.
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Post by leviathansteak on Jul 26, 2019 2:59:25 GMT
Oh and another thing, if guards have gaping holes and are sloppily fitted, it wouldnt surprise me at all that those same swords have other imperfections such as crooked pommels
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 3:40:55 GMT
Its an interesting theory that he has. It would certainly make certain pommel shapes more comfortable in the hand if true. However i am of the opinion that a great advantage of these flattened shapes (e.g. wheel, brazil nut) is that they aid in edge alignment. Therefore, having the pommel rotated out of alignment with the blade seems that it would partially nullify this advantage. Or it could be that they are arent there for edge alignment at all but rather to secure the hand in a cut. In which case his twisted pommel theory would make sense He actually made that same argument, that it's to retain the weapon in the hand. This is something I certainly could see, because it is still employed today in hand tools, which at that time, swords were.
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 3:43:41 GMT
I have always been a fan of Roland Warzecha, a student of the sword and very long time practitioner out of Germany in the school Dimicator. I vaguely remembered him proposing the possibility that sword pommels are meant to be crooked, to aid in the comfortability of their proper use. So I fell down the rabbit hole that is looking through several of his posts on patreon, facebook, and YouTube. Not only does he state that more viking swords have crooked pommels than not, he also shows several later period swords that show the same thing(single handed swords only, I believe). Not only this, but he states that after about the 11th century, the focus on having swords with tightly fitting guards almost disappeared. So as it turns out, Albion may be less historically accurate than windless and DSA. I like Roland and all, but I also have faith in Peter Johnsson's expertise. I can buy that some swords had canted pommels, especially with Viking Age sword hilts, but to extrapolate that out to Medieval single hand swords, and as the norm, is going to take a lot of supporting evidence. As to poorly fitted guards, we have better tools, measuring systems, and fault tolerances than any prior generation. Deliberately making a suboptimal weapon, because historicity, is certainly not my cup of tea. It will be a cold day in Niflheim (aren't they all), before I buy a Deepeeka sword. I understand your point, but that wouldn't make sense in regards to how much effort was put into other details of the weapons of say the 15th century, that also have poorly fitted guards. On top of that, the argument that a larger gap allows water and other things to get into the handle never made sense to me, mainly due to the fact that the fuller extends into the grip of almost all swords historically, and most swords made today. Edit: the loose guards, in regularity anyways, started later on. So that would mean that they got worse at making swords, which we know isn't the case. I also will never purchase a Deepeeka. Again.
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 3:45:10 GMT
Oh and another thing, if guards have gaping holes and are sloppily fitted, it wouldnt surprise me at all that those same swords have other imperfections such as crooked pommels That's almost never the case. Swords with twisted or misaligned pommels almost always have very tightly fitted guards, in earlier periods. It's only later on that the guards become so frequently loose.
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Post by nddave on Jul 26, 2019 7:46:05 GMT
I think the root of the situation is that alignment and a flush fit was more important than perfect geometry. For example if a pommel was made a little oddly shaped (as most handcrafted items are, especially in ealier times) they'd rather have the pommel fit flush to the grip than worry about how straight it was in appearance.
Pretty much functionality over aesthetics.
As far as preferring a loose guard, I don't really see the benefit in regards to practicality or defense. A loose gaurd is going to shift and potentiality allow a strike to make contact with the sword hand or create a recoil that would hit the users wrist. Two things you wouldn't want your guard to do in a life or death encounter. I see guards coming loose during or after use in battle or combat, but not a preferred fit to the hilt going in.
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 9:14:51 GMT
I think the root of the situation is that alignment and a flush fit was more important than perfect geometry. For example if a pommel was made a little oddly shaped (as most handcrafted items are, especially in ealier times) they'd rather have the pommel fit flush to the grip than worry about how straight it was in appearance. Pretty much functionality over aesthetics. As far as preferring a loose guard, I don't really see the benefit in regards to practicality or defense. A loose gaurd is going to shift and potentiality allow a strike to make contact with the sword hand or create a recoil that would hit the users wrist. Two things you wouldn't want your guard to do in a life or death encounter. I see guards coming loose during or after use in battle or combat, but not a preferred fit to the hilt going in. I meant loose without a grip. They seem to be mostly pressure fit to be tight, otherwise just jiggling about and sliding from pommel to blade.
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Post by nddave on Jul 26, 2019 13:03:47 GMT
I think the root of the situation is that alignment and a flush fit was more important than perfect geometry. For example if a pommel was made a little oddly shaped (as most handcrafted items are, especially in ealier times) they'd rather have the pommel fit flush to the grip than worry about how straight it was in appearance. Pretty much functionality over aesthetics. As far as preferring a loose guard, I don't really see the benefit in regards to practicality or defense. A loose gaurd is going to shift and potentiality allow a strike to make contact with the sword hand or create a recoil that would hit the users wrist. Two things you wouldn't want your guard to do in a life or death encounter. I see guards coming loose during or after use in battle or combat, but not a preferred fit to the hilt going in. I meant loose without a grip. They seem to be mostly pressure fit to be tight, otherwise just jiggling about and sliding from pommel to blade. Well yea, that's your standard compression fit that is done on nearly every type of sword ever created. How are they supposed to even get the guard on the tang if it doesn't slide down the tang and and rest on the shoulders? The other thing when referencing Medieval swords is that they are peened to keep the compression tight and secure. So if your guard is loose fitting after peening it probably means that something in either the shoulder area or grip area isnt flush or sitting right. If everything is flush but the guard is loose then you have structural concerns as either something has broke or loosened as in the peen itself or grip. All things that could be potentially dangerous for the user. Again I don't see any pracrical benefit to a loose gaurd either historically or today.
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 13:32:24 GMT
I meant loose without a grip. They seem to be mostly pressure fit to be tight, otherwise just jiggling about and sliding from pommel to blade. Well yea, that's your standard compression fit that is done on nearly every type of sword ever created. How are they supposed to even get the guard on the tang if it doesn't slide down the tang and and rest on the shoulders? The other thing when referencing Medieval swords is that they are peened to keep the compression tight and secure. So if your guard is loose fitting after peening it probably means that something in either the shoulder area or grip area isnt flush or sitting right. If everything is flush but the guard is loose then you have structural concerns as either something has broke or loosened as in the peen itself or grip. All things that could be potentially dangerous for the user. Again I don't see any pracrical benefit to a loose gaurd either historically or today. I was speaking in terms of excavated originals, without a surviving grip(bare tang and hilt components), not assembled blades with loose guards. Even quite a few of Ewart Oakshots previously owned examples have a very poor guard to blade/tang fit. While I understand that some corrosion took place, it certainly wasn't enough to cause that. It is also implied that the blades with a canted pommel are intended to be held similarly to the modern foil grip. With a cardboard reproduction of the hilt of a surviving viking blade, as well as a surviving type XIV blade, it certainly made it very comfortable in the hand, and since I've began looking, I have found images from 1300-1350 of what appears to be this very grip.
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Post by nddave on Jul 26, 2019 14:01:16 GMT
Well yea, that's your standard compression fit that is done on nearly every type of sword ever created. How are they supposed to even get the guard on the tang if it doesn't slide down the tang and and rest on the shoulders? The other thing when referencing Medieval swords is that they are peened to keep the compression tight and secure. So if your guard is loose fitting after peening it probably means that something in either the shoulder area or grip area isnt flush or sitting right. If everything is flush but the guard is loose then you have structural concerns as either something has broke or loosened as in the peen itself or grip. All things that could be potentially dangerous for the user. Again I don't see any pracrical benefit to a loose gaurd either historically or today. I was speaking in terms of excavated originals, without a surviving grip(bare tang and hilt components), not assembled blades with loose guards. Even quite a few of Ewart Oakshots previously owned examples have a very poor guard to blade/tang fit. While I understand that some corrosion took place, it certainly wasn't enough to cause that. It is also implied that the blades with a canted pommel are intended to be held similarly to the modern foil grip. With a cardboard reproduction of the hilt of a surviving viking blade, as well as a surviving type XIV blade, it certainly made it very comfortable in the hand, and since I've began looking, I have found images from 1300-1350 of what appears to be this very grip. Well yea its a three piece compression, guard, grip and pommel. Take out the middle and the gaurd will slide. Also ypu have to look at Europe culturally for what it is. Very industrious. Old swords even the onese taken care of where simply something they didnt bother fixing if thwy weren't using them. So an old sword sitting around for hundreds of years wouldnt be bothered with to make structurally or functionally sound if its just being displayed or boxed away. The pommel crookness I can see as a potential grip enhancements, not loose guards though. That's just impractical for a working sword.
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thomasthesecond
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 14:12:19 GMT
I didnt mean to make it sound like the loose guards was related to the same subject, so I apologize for that. It was just something else I found when researching the pommels.
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stormmaster
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Post by stormmaster on Jul 26, 2019 14:20:28 GMT
ive seen some 2h hungarian sabers with crooked pommels and angled grips, but that might have been intended, dont think this is true for all swords and pommels were probably not crooked all that often on purpose
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thomasthesecond
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 14:33:56 GMT
ive seen some 2h hungarian sabers with crooked pommels and angled grips, but that might have been intended, dont think this is true for all swords and pommels were probably not crooked all that often on purpose It actually seems that until the 11th century, they were crooked more often than not, which was what led me to believe that it was on purpose. Check out some of Roland Warzecha's videos on the subject.
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stormmaster
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Post by stormmaster on Jul 26, 2019 14:36:46 GMT
ive seen some 2h hungarian sabers with crooked pommels and angled grips, but that might have been intended, dont think this is true for all swords and pommels were probably not crooked all that often on purpose It actually seems that until the 11th century, they were crooked more often than not, which was what led me to believe that it was on purpose. Check out some of Roland Warzecha's videos on the subject. well we have to also look back at the fact that the human eye is imperfect and most stuff does not come out fully symetrical like the stuff we get today so things might just be slightly crooked because a human made them by hand, so for sure some pommels were crooked but i dont think intentionally but rather just the nature of a handmade product, also its been a long time with age stuff deteriorates and as things age they could just be getting crooked from age, thats my opinion anyways
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thomasthesecond
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 26, 2019 14:47:44 GMT
It actually seems that until the 11th century, they were crooked more often than not, which was what led me to believe that it was on purpose. Check out some of Roland Warzecha's videos on the subject. well we have to also look back at the fact that the human eye is imperfect and most stuff does not come out fully symetrical like the stuff we get today so things might just be slightly crooked because a human made them by hand, so for sure some pommels were crooked but i dont think intentionally but rather just the nature of a handmade product, also its been a long time with age stuff deteriorates and as things age they could just be getting crooked from age, thats my opinion anyways That's plausible, but the twist is too consistent. It's far too twisted to just be slightly off, and they're all twisted the same way, almost to the same degree. That would certainly be one hell of an uncanny coincidence if it was in fact accidental.
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stormmaster
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Post by stormmaster on Jul 26, 2019 14:56:04 GMT
well we have to also look back at the fact that the human eye is imperfect and most stuff does not come out fully symetrical like the stuff we get today so things might just be slightly crooked because a human made them by hand, so for sure some pommels were crooked but i dont think intentionally but rather just the nature of a handmade product, also its been a long time with age stuff deteriorates and as things age they could just be getting crooked from age, thats my opinion anyways That's plausible, but the twist is too consistent. It's far too twisted to just be slightly off, and they're all twisted the same way, almost to the same degree. That would certainly be one hell of an uncanny coincidence if it was in fact accidental. its not too hard to believe if its a specific type of sword that has the constantly crooked pommel, and artifacts are found in similar situations time and time again, then again i could be wrong and people back then just didnt care about symmetry or didnt have the tools like we do now and not every sword found is a masterpiece
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christain
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Post by christain on Jul 27, 2019 15:52:06 GMT
The only sword I have that I do any frequent cutting with is my H/T Norman, and the pommel is *ever so slightly* misaligned with the guard. Everything is tight, and you really have to look hard to even notice it. I can't tell any difference, pro or con, that it makes in cutting. My 2 cents.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 27, 2019 16:29:05 GMT
So something that comes to mind for me is that the early European swords are mostly all double edged. Wouldn't the pommel being crooked really only help in one direction? At that point, with an assymetric hilt, why not only have one edge, and save on time, steel, weight, etc etc.
Another thing is how much solid evidence is there? If the pommel were made crooked, and specifically so, they should show up on basically most of not all swords of the era right?
It's not hard for steel or iron to warp slightly.
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