AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 7, 2019 20:46:06 GMT
This fighting system disappeared, ...why? Is single hand thrusting sword or sabre so much better? Lunge?
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Post by howler on Jun 7, 2019 21:15:06 GMT
I'm thinking military applications overshadowing one on one dueling, though one could still use saber or whatever (like in the movie The Duelist). Rapier & Dagger were a NASTY beast for one on one duel, so even people engaging in duels probably chose less lethal (even to "first blood") ways to satisfy honor.
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Post by markus313 on Jun 7, 2019 21:27:15 GMT
I’d guess it had to do to the decline of „real-life“ swordmanship in general (guns taking over in war and civilian life). Just too cumbersome to carry around that stuff. From a "fencing" point of view, probably one of the best combos to have - but falling short to longsword, sword and buckler (not those tiny ones), polearms, not the best for armored fighting and war. Sabre only took over due to the for some time still ongoing role of cavalry and resp. tactics.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jun 7, 2019 22:26:09 GMT
I've done rapier and dagger vs longsword, honestly I don't think it falls short to it at all at least one on one.
I'd also put it at about even against sword and buckler, at least with a sailguard or clamshell.
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Post by markus313 on Jun 7, 2019 22:31:38 GMT
I've done rapier and dagger vs longsword, honestly I don't think it falls short to it at all at least one on one. I'd also put it at about even against sword and buckler, at least with a sailguard or clamshell. I agree. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. I meant from a “martial” point of view.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jun 7, 2019 23:25:27 GMT
I've done rapier and dagger vs longsword, honestly I don't think it falls short to it at all at least one on one. I'd also put it at about even against sword and buckler, at least with a sailguard or clamshell. I agree. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. I meant from a “martial” point of view. Ah okay, though personally I would still not choose the longsword, I never have really seen why it should have any real advantage over other weapons of the period or soon after period it occupied. But I am biased against it, despite being taught it I never really took it up in favor.
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Post by howler on Jun 8, 2019 0:44:11 GMT
I’d guess it had to do to the decline of „real-life“ swordmanship in general (guns taking over in war and civilian life). Just too cumbersome to carry around that stuff. From a "fencing" point of view, probably one of the best combos to have - but falling short to longsword, sword and buckler (not those tiny ones), polearms, not the best for armored fighting and war. Sabre only took over due to the for some time still ongoing role of cavalry and resp. tactics. A bunch of gentlemen, each with 4' of spiked rapier "tail feathers" hanging behind them, walking around, dancing, sitting in a small crowded bar...would make a great Monty Python skit.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 8, 2019 0:56:23 GMT
Guns took supremacy for civilian self defense. Smallswords took the duel. Sabers took the battlefield. Cutlasses took the ship. Rapiers were laid off.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 8, 2019 0:59:44 GMT
That's Lester's Musketeers! Beside court dress codes, why chose a transitional rapier/degen in a duel against rapier & main gauche?
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Post by markus313 on Jun 8, 2019 5:43:12 GMT
I will go with Howler and say that rapier fighting (especially dueling) is pretty darn dangerous. George Silver pointed out the several problems the rapier carries, when fighting itself and when fighting other weapons. One of the biggest problems being not able to disengage from close distance due to its length and thus the combatants ending up stabbing each others with their daggers. Also he said that rapier tend to produce a lot of double hits.
Then there is the weight issue. Not only those things are tiresome to carry around, but there are smallsword weighing one third of a rapier. I also read of smallsword duels lasting very long (‘till first blood – change of mindset?) while rapier fights tended to emerge from hot blood. A Degen not too short could be used for defense vs. a rapier, can disengage in close and is light enough to play the cardiovascular game.
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Post by markus313 on Jun 8, 2019 6:46:10 GMT
I agree. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. I meant from a “martial” point of view. Ah okay, though personally I would still not choose the longsword, I never have really seen why it should have any real advantage over other weapons of the period or soon after period it occupied. But I am biased against it, despite being taught it I never really took it up in favor. Why use only one hand on the weapon when armor allows you to press forward?
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Post by zabazagobo on Jun 9, 2019 9:44:24 GMT
Everywhere. Limp blades. No cutting. Very long, and very short. No symmetry. Poor form. Vulnerable. Predictable.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jun 9, 2019 9:46:05 GMT
It died because it was weak. As do all styles historically. Weak against what? A more curious discussion. Certainly weak as it were against blades, let alone firearms. Or bows.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jun 9, 2019 19:25:14 GMT
Pistols are much, much easier to carry and use. A pistol ball is also probably going to do more damage than a thin piece of steel (and is probably going to penetrate better, low power powder and gun designs notwithstanding).
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 9, 2019 19:41:41 GMT
So rapier and dagger were the last bladed weapons in use and then everybody carried only pistols?
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Post by markus313 on Jun 9, 2019 21:39:54 GMT
From my information and interpretation of the sources, it may also have to do with the trend to formalize duels, and a slow but constant stabilization of the classes traditionally engaging in dueling. Aside from rapiers never having been all that well suited for self-defense. So sheering swords/spadroons for civilian/defensive cut-n’-thrust (and all kinds of blades available next to guns, of course), smallswords and later more so pistols for the duel. Sabers for the cavalry, the artisans and defiants and reenactors. Hangers to feel good for the navy and to use in law-enforcement, sometimes.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 9, 2019 21:52:19 GMT
Yeah, same thoughts here. Perhaps daggers and pistols were banned at court for reasonable reasons. I'd like to know if a fighter with a degen or even a smallsword could win against rapier & main gauche man in a duel situation. More reach with lunging? (no pistol involved)
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Post by markus313 on Jun 9, 2019 22:23:33 GMT
If the gentleman choosing rapier and dagger can catch the smallswordist while holding a half-filled beer mug in his half-outstretched arm, my money’s on the rapier man! But if he spills the beer by trippin’, exhaustion or by getting his mug spilled o’er him by the other one, or may it be any other way, he is not worth my 2 cent. BTW, is a rapier even a sword? Kidding aside, I think the smallswordist would do good if being light on his feet, having enough cardio and space to move as well as patience to wait for a mistake (e.g. the rapier-man over-extending himself or letting the point drop), all while moving out towards the dagger-side and thrusting at the resp. hand should the safe chance arise. If the rapier-man gets tired, the chance to ride the smallsword either around the dagger or along the rapier blade (each while controlling/guarding from the other blade with the off-hand) increases.
Also, in a clinch situation, the rapier man has – many kinds of - problems using his long blade. The smallswordist has one hand free to grapple and a slim spike to stab with.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jun 10, 2019 5:02:39 GMT
Everywhere. Limp blades. No cutting. Very long, and very short. No symmetry. Poor form. Vulnerable. Predictable. I'm curious, what are you founding this in?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jun 10, 2019 5:16:01 GMT
Yeah, same thoughts here. Perhaps daggers and pistols were banned at court for reasonable reasons. I'd like to know if a fighter with a degen or even a smallsword could win against rapier & main gauche man in a duel situation. More reach with lunging? (no pistol involved) It depends on the skill of either wielder, and of course blade length. I've fought smallsworders who are very good and can thrash me, and smallsworders who I can reliably stab by either just having more reach on them, baiting them into an attack and cross parrying with the dagger. The dagger gives any swordsmen a huge advantage because it basically gives you a short thrusting sword. Mine is an 18" blade on a sailguard. The smallsworder or single sworder has no more reach than lunging than a man with am off hand, unless the off hand is so restrictive you can't somehow just hold it to you chest. Especially since the rapier really should be longer anyways than either Degen or smallsword.
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