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Post by joeybones on Jun 1, 2019 10:50:02 GMT
What amazes me is how many photos and video's I have seen of people using a sword while wearing sandals.
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Post by MOK on Jun 1, 2019 10:55:27 GMT
So for the upward diagonal cut going from right to left - why is it done with the left foot forward - instead of right foot forward ? Ie: left foot is forward, but the cutting stroke is towards the left.... I’ve tried that cut with the right foot forward. It’s a little more awkward- but not difficult. Which way is safer ? Why ? What about horizontal cuts ? Which leg should be in front ? At least in European systems, large cuts are typically done with a passing step while entering into measure, i.e. in your example you would start left foot forward in Nebenhut and end right foot forward in Ochs. Stepping forward with the cut means you're safely out of measure before it, and protected from simple counters during it; also, the rotation of your feet, hips, body and shoulders is largely what powers the cut. Cutting in the direction opposite to the rotation means not only that you're more likely to cut yourself if you screw up, you're also kinda fighting against yourself and generating power with your core muscles alone; beginning and ending with the right foot forward is, indeed, more awkward and has the same issue with power generation, although to a lesser degree, but it's called for in some specific situations. A lot of people do stand still when cutting targets, but that's a luxury you don't have in a fight and a bad habit you should not get accustomed to.
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Post by john1 on Jun 1, 2019 11:31:57 GMT
Thanks the rotational aspect and core muscles only (or not) wasn’t something I’d thought about, but it clarifies a lot of “is A better than B” questions I’d been mulling over.
A downward cut, followed by a rising cut, followed by horizontal cut is a common pattern. Would all 3 be done with a step in the European system - or just the 1st one ?
BTW- do you happen to have a graphic like the one above for cuts ? Ie: what are Kesa Geri, and Suihei called in the German system ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 12:07:29 GMT
What amazes me is how many photos and video's I have seen of people using a sword while wearing sandals. There's even more done barefoot or in socks as shoes and boots don't go over well on a dojo floor.
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Post by MOK on Jun 1, 2019 12:47:32 GMT
Thanks the rotational aspect and core muscles only (or not) wasn’t something I’d thought about, but it clarifies a lot of “is A better than B” questions I’d been mulling over. A downward cut, followed by a rising cut, followed by horizontal cut is a common pattern. Would all 3 be done with a step in the European system - or just the 1st one ? BTW- do you happen to have a graphic like the one above for cuts ? Ie: what are Kesa Geri, and Suihei called in the German system ? Well, if you're already in measure to deliver the second cut, obviously you don't need nor want to step any closer. In German terms your example might be cutting Vom Tag to Alber, then Alber to Ochs, then Ochs to Ochs on the opposite side, at least in theory each time changing your leading foot. But with a stationary target you'd likely be either taking very small steps alternately back and forth while remaining within measure, or moving your feet sideways to essentially rotate in place without an actual change of leading foot. (Not that you'd ever actually use this kind of cutting pattern as is in a fight, anyway; unlike straw mats and soda bottles, if the first cut fails to instantly disable an active opponent they won't stand still and wait for you to strike again, they'll try to hit back or run away, the jerks! Tameshigiri patterns are only for target practice.) I'm not so well versed in Japanese kenjutsu, but AFAIK Kesa Giri is the basic diagonal cut from shoulder to opposite hip, right? That'd be the Zornhau in the German tradition, typically moving Vom Tag to Alber or Pflug, or sometimes to Nebenhut or Langenort (sword extended and pointed at the opponent, essentially stopping halfway between Vom Tag and Alber). I don't think there's a German named analogue to Suihei, as such - that's just a horizontal cut. FWIW, Kesa Giri correspond to military saber cuts 1 (if cutting from your right to left) and 2 (the opposite), and Suihei to cuts 5 and 6. The Italian systems also tend to feature more systematic labeling of specific cuts for longsword and rapier, at that.
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Post by john1 on Jun 1, 2019 12:50:23 GMT
Thanks for your help !
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Post by joeybones on Jun 2, 2019 19:49:42 GMT
I'm guessing a long sword and short legs would go a long way to prevent such injuries .
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 3, 2019 9:42:09 GMT
A good point has been touched on and that is the difference between a static cut for practice vs. cutting in a fight. I stated earlier that the IDEAL way is opposite foot (as I think we all agree to), but in a fight your opening my be at a less than book-perfect position, in which case you have to take the cut because you may not get another opportunity. It's good to practice cutting from odd positions (with a practice blade of course!) so you know your limitation, risks, and capabilities.
As with everything else in life, there is the ideal book way of doing things, then there is the real world. Most of the time they match up, but not always.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 5, 2019 17:10:27 GMT
You can also do shuffle-steps in measure to adjust your feet, often as part of changing the fight's center to your advantage. And you can do reverse steps as well. The general idea in the German systems is to always be fighting while you do this.
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Post by vercingtorix on Jun 28, 2021 17:01:09 GMT
that sounds bizzare to me. in military sabre, we cut with the dominant leg forward in all cases, and we occasionally do wild stuff like recovering with a moulinet, so I don't really understand how you'd cut your leg. maybe your system's cutting mechanics are radically different, though.
most of the leg injuries I've seen are "sports injury" type stuff -- tendonitis in the knee and ankle from bad form, or rolled ankles from simply moving the wrong way when sparring.
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Post by treeslicer on Jun 29, 2021 3:51:06 GMT
that sounds bizzare to me. in military sabre, we cut with the dominant leg forward in all cases, and we occasionally do wild stuff like recovering with a moulinet, so I don't really understand how you'd cut your leg. maybe your system's cutting mechanics are radically different, though. most of the leg injuries I've seen are "sports injury" type stuff -- tendonitis in the knee and ankle from bad form, or rolled ankles from simply moving the wrong way when sparring. Historically (judging by Nakamura's anecdotes in Spirit of the Sword), a number of IJA officers well grounded in kendo (Japanese fencing, no more related to serious kenjutsu than Western fencing is to HEMA) managed to embarrassingly lame or castrate themselves while committing the simplest sort of atrocities with real swords. They didn't expect the increased inertia that real katana have compared to a shinai (kendo foil). Be careful with live sharp and pointies, OK?
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Post by vercingtorix on Jun 29, 2021 21:55:04 GMT
Historically (judging by Nakamura's anecdotes in Spirit of the Sword), a number of IJA officers well grounded in kendo (Japanese fencing, no more related to serious kenjutsu than Western fencing is to HEMA) managed to embarrassingly lame or castrate themselves while committing the simplest sort of atrocities with real swords. They didn't expect the increased inertia that real katana have compared to a shinai (kendo foil). Be careful with live sharp and pointies, OK?
Oof, yeah, I'm 100% with you on safety with sharps here, no doubt, and I'm definitely not arguing for doing anything unsafe.
I dunno, I just sorta found it weird because in 18th/19th c. broadsword and sabre, we do all cuts with the same leg forward. I really kinda chalk it up to my lack of understanding japanese systems' cutting dynamics, but I simply couldn't picture how one could cut their own leg. I legitimately spent a few minutes with my feders trying to hit myself in the leg too, and found that I could only do so if I intentionally targeted my own leg while also throwing the cut in false times.
Even with the talk about increased inertia, it still doesn't really make sense to how I understand cutting, since if I have to over-throw a cut due to excessive mass in the tip, I'm just going to overthrow into a moulinet and either recover to a guard that way or throw a second cut powered by the moulinet. So again, I really chalk it up to me not being someone who fences with japanese swords -- I can't picture how a kenjutsu cut works, and in the way I cut in my systems, the direction of the cut isn't going to change what leg I have forward, regardless of the weight and balance of the sword. So it's just sorta mindblowing to me, I guess.
Now then, that's not to say there's not cuts that scare me. If I were to use a stance with the offhand raised like this, then I'd be afaid of shearing off my fingers if I were to cut #2 with a moulinet over the head, so I tend to tuck the offhand either behind the back or leave it on the hip, even though the raised offhand affords better options for balance and more speed in recovering from a lunge.
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Post by treeslicer on Jun 29, 2021 22:54:56 GMT
Historically (judging by Nakamura's anecdotes in Spirit of the Sword), a number of IJA officers well grounded in kendo (Japanese fencing, no more related to serious kenjutsu than Western fencing is to HEMA) managed to embarrassingly lame or castrate themselves while committing the simplest sort of atrocities with real swords. They didn't expect the increased inertia that real katana have compared to a shinai (kendo foil). Be careful with live sharp and pointies, OK?
Oof, yeah, I'm 100% with you on safety with sharps here, no doubt, and I'm definitely not arguing for doing anything unsafe.
I dunno, I just sorta found it weird because in 18th/19th c. broadsword and sabre, we do all cuts with the same leg forward. I really kinda chalk it up to my lack of understanding japanese systems' cutting dynamics, but I simply couldn't picture how one could cut their own leg. I legitimately spent a few minutes with my feders trying to hit myself in the leg too, and found that I could only do so if I intentionally targeted my own leg while also throwing the cut in false times.
Even with the talk about increased inertia, it still doesn't really make sense to how I understand cutting, since if I have to over-throw a cut due to excessive mass in the tip, I'm just going to overthrow into a moulinet and either recover to a guard that way or throw a second cut powered by the moulinet. So again, I really chalk it up to me not being someone who fences with japanese swords -- I can't picture how a kenjutsu cut works, and in the way I cut in my systems, the direction of the cut isn't going to change what leg I have forward, regardless of the weight and balance of the sword. So it's just sorta mindblowing to me, I guess.
Now then, that's not to say there's not cuts that scare me. If I were to use a stance with the offhand raised like this, then I'd be afaid of shearing off my fingers if I were to cut #2 with a moulinet over the head, so I tend to tuck the offhand either behind the back or leave it on the hip, even though the raised offhand affords better options for balance and more speed in recovering from a lunge. Military saber (which I also practice, with originals) uses a one-handed grip with the right side advanced. Most Japanese katana work is two-handed, performed facing front. Think about it.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 29, 2021 22:58:13 GMT
What types of errors result in the swordsmans leg getting cut ? Thanks Answer: Ignorance and stupidity!
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Post by treeslicer on Jun 29, 2021 23:33:31 GMT
What types of errors result in the swordsmans leg getting cut ? Thanks Answer: Ignorance and stupidity! Get thee behind me, Lord Newport . The appropriate answer to that would be to wonder why you aren't in a wheelchair already.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 7:12:24 GMT
If people are cutting their leg, the reason is using a sharp sword before they have adequately trained with it
When I'm getting back into cutting after a long time, I like to feel out my cutting path first by going through the motions slowly, and gradually increasing speed till my muscle memory has the shape of the cut down exactly
By doing this I have also learned how to throw cuts in small spaces, even with full power. As adventurers blade said, you can throw any cut from any angle if you learn proper blade control
First practice with a blunt or a waster (or in my case a bokken) then move to sharps when you feel confident your cut will never go near your leg
Also, your diagonal cut might be too steep in its angle. Widen it out and yiu will find the blade out of your way
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 30, 2021 13:33:47 GMT
If people are cutting their leg, the reason is using a sharp sword before they have adequately trained with it Insufficient levels of instruction and training = ignorance Deciding to cut without any instruction/ training = stupidity
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 14:27:17 GMT
If people are cutting their leg, the reason is using a sharp sword before they have adequately trained with it Insufficient levels of instruction and training = ignorance Deciding to cut without any instruction/ training = stupidity If someone is gonna take the chance, without instruction, they should practice with a waster first. Especially if it's double edged. Single edged is just slightly less to worry about.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 1, 2021 16:03:59 GMT
My original answer was given in accordance with the question, a safety issue. And with my tunnel vision that’s how I answered. To carry this further, and may have been addressed in the numerous responses but with my quick scan failed to see it. For a #1 cut, from top right to lower left, by placing the right foot forward or bringing the left rearward, increases the power on the cut as you can bring all of your body into the cut, especially the leg muscles. Different schools teach differently but I disagree with bringing the left foot forward for a #3 cut, lower right to upper left, that is the reverse of the way I was taught. Again for the same reason as above, more power. I just now realized the date of the OP.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 1, 2021 18:34:08 GMT
If people are cutting their leg, the reason is using a sharp sword before they have adequately trained with it ^THIS^ In a formal training program, a student will NEVER touch a sharp blade for 3 or 4 years, maybe even longer. They only get to handle one when they advanced to a fairly high degree of proficiency and maturity. I always worry about untrained people handling real swords and the potential for serious injury.
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