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Post by john1 on May 27, 2019 12:44:01 GMT
For JSA, I was taught that when cutting downward from right toward left, the right foot should be forward; and when cutting downward left to right, then the left foot should be forward —- to avoid accidentally cutting your knee or lower leg. However, a 28” (or longer) blade held with a 2 handed hilt —- wouldn't seem to reach your leg even if the “wrong” leg was forward. Also, for upward cuts, the feet are reversed from the above (left foot forward when cutting upward right to left) —- seemingly violating the “never cut toward your own leg” principle for the downward cuts... Can anyone shed some light on the “rules” above ? What types of errors result in the swordsmans leg getting cut ? Thanks
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on May 27, 2019 13:37:59 GMT
Your leg only gets cut if you exercise no control over the stopping point of the cut. You can throw downward cuts towards the forward leg side all day if you throw the cut out to maximum extension and then draw the hilt back to your hip with the point forward.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 27, 2019 14:09:36 GMT
I've seen accident happens to people who are not aware of stopping the sword at the right position. Literally they were like throwing stone at their own leading knee.
I'm for one cutting right to left with my left leg forward due to several tactical advantages. But then this is of course a more advanced technique.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 27, 2019 14:26:07 GMT
You can do a #1 cut with left leg forward but remember Murphy’s Law, if it can happen it will.
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Post by RufusScorpius on May 27, 2019 14:52:45 GMT
I think the ideal is that left foot forward for a right side cut, and vice versa. But in reality, you may have an opening when your feet are in the wrong position and it would be folly to not take advantage of it. That is why it's important to practice cutting from your weak side and weak footing more than practicing from your strong sides. At the end of the day, I agree with the other posters here, it's more about controlling your sword and not over swinging.
A sword isn't a baseball bat, you must learn to be able to stop your swing a few inches past your target (in case you miss). A wide follow through does absolutely nothing at all. What I do is pick my actual hit point a few inches past what I really want to hit, that way if the target moves or I miss, then I won't over swing and expose myself or risk injury, while at the same time keeping my sword inside the "box" where I can either defend or give a second strike.
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Post by john1 on May 27, 2019 15:07:03 GMT
What I’m confused by is: Even if the swordsman “slips up in some way” and makes a cut with super severe overswing, with a “worst case / short 2 handed sword - like a katana) - the guard ends up just above the kneecap, with the sword tip buried in the ground 12-15” in front of the toes (and 6-8” to the side) - keeping a good 6-8” between the blade and the knee. So how do people manage to cut their forward leg ? I can see how it would happen with a single handed short sword that doesn’t hit the ground - but how does it happen with a 2 handed sword as long as a katana ? And why do upward diagonal cuts seem to have the opposite safety rule ? Ie: why are they started from near the back leg and cutting upward toward the front leg - as opposed to starting from the “back side” and cutting toward the front of the body (Ie: upward left to right cut would be started low left, and cutting toward upper right, with the left foot forward). Ps: I’m not trying to be argumentative, or dispute the wisdom of the conventional safety rules. I’m trying to learn “why” so I can apply the principles to other cutting patterns. Always best to learn from other people’s mistakes
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Post by leviathansteak on May 27, 2019 15:14:41 GMT
The best way i know how to avoid cutting your lead leg is to avoid collapsing the structure of the left wrist (assumed right hander). Even if you cut with the "wrong" leg forward, if your left wrist remains locked, it will be be difficult for you to hit the leg.
Try doing a cut really slowly through the air till you reach the endpoint with the left wrist locked and both elbows straight.
Now try collapsing the left wrist such that it is limp. You will see that the blade moves much closer to your leg now.
These accidents can be borne out of a tendency for people to only use their right arm to control the sword with the left arm basically doing no work at all. Both arms should be doing the work equally. Possibly even more for the left arm
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Post by RufusScorpius on May 27, 2019 16:22:17 GMT
I haven't much experience with a one hand sword, so I will be speaking from a two hand perspective. In this case, assuming a right handed person (lefties are the same, only opposite), the right hand is held forward towards the handguard, held a bit loose because it's what "aims" the sword and acts as a fulcrum with the index finger and thumb doing most of the gripping work, the left hand grips at the bottom of the handle with the ring and pinky fingers, with the other fingers looser. The left hand is what strikes, using the right hand as a pivot. To stop the sword, simply squeeze with both hands and all fingers, giving a slight inward twist with the wrists. As leviathansteak says, it's about not collapsing the geometric structure of your technique. When it's done correctly, it's nearly impossible to hit yourself. This is why I always insist on using a "school of teaching" method (you can pick which one you like), rather than making something up yourself. The various schools learned from real fights in the real world and what they do will work when used properly. You can, of course, invent your own technique, but you really should study established methods first so you have a good base of knowledge from which to create something new. Once again, it's hard to explain in words, but I will make a video of this soon and it will make more sense if I show rather than explain.
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Post by MOK on May 27, 2019 18:36:19 GMT
What I’m confused by is: Even if the swordsman “slips up in some way” and makes a cut with super severe overswing, with a “worst case / short 2 handed sword - like a katana) - the guard ends up just above the kneecap, with the sword tip buried in the ground 12-15” in front of the toes (and 6-8” to the side) - keeping a good 6-8” between the blade and the knee. So how do people manage to cut their forward leg ? I can see how it would happen with a single handed short sword that doesn’t hit the ground - but how does it happen with a 2 handed sword as long as a katana? Hell, you can cut your back leg, too.Saying that you can safely cut towards your lead leg as long as you don't overextend the swing is like saying it's safe to drive without a seat belt as long as you don't hit anything. It's completely missing the whole point of safety measures.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 27, 2019 18:50:37 GMT
Or even the calf of the back leg. I had an acquaintance that had 13 to 14 stitches on the calf because of the second upward cut hit his back leg. But yeah, there are historical techniques for cutting toward front leg. Not for beginners though. Also the cut in 1:15
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on May 27, 2019 19:11:45 GMT
What I’m confused by is: Even if the swordsman “slips up in some way” and makes a cut with super severe overswing, with a “worst case / short 2 handed sword - like a katana) - the guard ends up just above the kneecap, with the sword tip buried in the ground 12-15” in front of the toes (and 6-8” to the side) - keeping a good 6-8” between the blade and the knee. So how do people manage to cut their forward leg ? I can see how it would happen with a single handed short sword that doesn’t hit the ground - but how does it happen with a 2 handed sword as long as a katana ? And why do upward diagonal cuts seem to have the opposite safety rule ? Ie: why are they started from near the back leg and cutting upward toward the front leg - as opposed to starting from the “back side” and cutting toward the front of the body (Ie: upward left to right cut would be started low left, and cutting toward upper right, with the left foot forward). Ps: I’m not trying to be argumentative, or dispute the wisdom of the conventional safety rules. I’m trying to learn “why” so I can apply the principles to other cutting patterns. Always best to learn from other people’s mistakes With the upward cutting, when you have the left left forward it's more in the center, thus more in the way of cutting if you cut from a very low and steep angle. But if your right is forward, your feet naturally make a path for the sword blade to travel
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 0:07:28 GMT
If you have a bokken, deliberately try to hit your leg with your rising cuts with either foot forward. Do you notice a difference when one foot is forward versus the other? Same for your descending cuts. Try to screw them up deliberately and see what happens.
Lots of things can go wrong with swords. With sharps, it can be anything from very minor to very very serious. The worst case scenarios are pretty awful, so be extremely careful if you go outside your instruction.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 29, 2019 20:15:11 GMT
I'm not sure how you'd hit your leg with a sword on a downward angled cut unless you were just swinging wildly. One or two handed, I've never seen it happen. Axes are another matter, of course. I suspect the off-foot is not typically left out there because it becomes an exposed target in measure. Most of the Liechtenauer cuts are made starting left foot forward, then cutting into measure with a step using the right foot. If you are in measure with your sword back over your right shoulder and your left foot out, nothing is protecting the left foot from a snipe.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on May 29, 2019 20:22:16 GMT
I'm not sure how you'd hit your leg with a sword on a downward angled cut unless you were just swinging wildly. One or two handed, I've never seen it happen. Axes are another matter, of course. I suspect the off-foot is not typically left out there because it becomes an exposed target in measure. Most of the Liechtenauer cuts are made starting left foot forward, then cutting into measure with a step using the right foot. Yes I've seen ppl swing wildly, even losing grip on the impact of cutting a water bottle and letting fly the sword toward the crowd. Or lose grip during the recovery of a single handed strike. You can't underestimate the level of stupidity out there. :(
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on May 30, 2019 4:42:19 GMT
Pilot error
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 30, 2019 5:55:13 GMT
Reading I see many arguments as to why this will not happen but there are medical documents that state otherwise. Obviously whoever didn’t do something correctly.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on May 30, 2019 8:52:56 GMT
I suspect that most of the downward cut leg injuries were/are actually caused by the false edge. A downward #1 cut that reaches its lowest point and keeps going will roll your right hand from a supinated grip to a pronated grip. This puts the true edge facing upwards as if ready for a #4 cut. Done without control, the back edge will hit your left leg if it is forward. That is the only explanation I can imagine for cutting the back of your own calf, which I have seen pictures of.
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Post by MOK on May 30, 2019 17:24:18 GMT
IRL, semprini happens. Your foot can slip, your hand can slip, your attention can slip, you can just straight up screw up for no particular reason. If you execute with perfect technique and nothing interferes, sure, it's exceedingly difficult to cut your own leg... but you can never know that that's what will happen. Safety measures like not cutting toward your leading leg are specifically for those unexpected occasions when things DO NOT go according to plan, for whatever reason.
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Post by john1 on May 31, 2019 23:56:30 GMT
So for the upward diagonal cut going from right to left - why is it done with the left foot forward - instead of right foot forward ? Ie: left foot is forward, but the cutting stroke is towards the left....
I’ve tried that cut with the right foot forward. It’s a little more awkward- but not difficult. Which way is safer ? Why ?
What about horizontal cuts ? Which leg should be in front ?
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jun 1, 2019 6:19:08 GMT
Upward cut is not going to ur legs so the left foot forward one have more room cleared for your starting position. Maybe you need an instructor to tell you all these details. ;)
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