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Post by elbrittania39 on May 25, 2019 3:39:40 GMT
What are some good traits that a rapier can have that mildly enhance its ability to cut without sacrificing much in the terms of thrusting or handling? Is it more important to make the blade a tad wider, balance it out another inch than normal, or something else entirely?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 25, 2019 3:44:52 GMT
I'm still waiting for my backordered Patton but I hope to find there the right balance.
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Post by leviathansteak on May 25, 2019 4:37:43 GMT
Well assuming we keep the amount of steel constant, we can widen the blade but that would make it more flexible and the width might affect thrusting performance. So, i wouldnt widen the blade too much.
The blade geometry would be important. I would opt for a flat grind from spine to edge without any secondary bevel to keep the edge angle nice and acute.
I have 2 sideswords, a slimmer one with a fat secondary bevel and a slightly wider one with barely any sec bevel. The wider one without the secondary bevel cuts far better than the other as you'd expect
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 25, 2019 6:04:40 GMT
Yeah, you need to either sacrifice length or quick maneuverability. Wider blade and heavy or shorter and wider and same weight. Honestly I don't think you should try to achieve cutting with a rapier in design, as the sword itself really shines with quick disengages, target feints, and bind work.
That said, I would go for a lenticular profile and maybe 3/4 or 1/2 inch wide or slightly more in the cutting portion. That was how the Spanish rapier I reviewed was and I think it could have opened a neck with the right technique as morbid as that sounds.
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Post by elbrittania39 on May 25, 2019 6:24:12 GMT
Yeah, you need to either sacrifice length or quick maneuverability. Wider blade and heavy or shorter and wider and same weight. Honestly I don't think you should try to achieve cutting with a rapier in design, as the sword itself really shines with quick disengages, target feints, and bind work. That said, I would go for a lenticular profile and maybe 3/4 or 1/2 inch wide or slightly more in the cutting portion. That was how the Spanish rapier I reviewed was and I think it could have opened a neck with the right technique as morbid as that sounds. Thanks, that's kinda what I'm looking for. I know cutting with a rapier will always be sub-optimal, but I don't want a rapier so focused on thrusting that I'd feel as if I was taking a gamble when committing to a cut.
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Post by markus313 on May 25, 2019 7:17:12 GMT
Grip shape and the mass of the hilt play a part also. Look at Meyer`s “Rappier” – a rather light and simple hilt and a blade not too long. No fingering the quillon in the German tradition, but a lot of cutting with the "rappier".
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Post by leviathansteak on May 25, 2019 7:34:07 GMT
Grip shape and the mass of the hilt play a part also. Look at Meyer`s “Rappier” – a rather light and simple hilt and a blade not too long. No fingering the quillon in the German tradition, but a lot of cutting with the "rappier". Actually i quite like the feel of the finger ring during cutting motions. There's the feeling of security that the blade isnt gonna slip out of the hand and i sometimes use the index finger to provide a bit of extra 'pull' and leverage when starting my cut.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 25, 2019 7:35:56 GMT
But I think today we'd call Meyer's Rappier a sidesword. Everything that makes a rapier a better cutter also makes it a worse thruster. The question is what do you want to cut?
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Post by markus313 on May 25, 2019 7:39:51 GMT
Grip shape and the mass of the hilt play a part also. Look at Meyer`s “Rappier” – a rather light and simple hilt and a blade not too long. No fingering the quillon in the German tradition, but a lot of cutting with the "rappier". Actually i quite like the feel of the finger ring during cutting motions. There's the feeling of security that the blade isnt gonna slip out of the hand and i sometimes use the index finger to provide a bit of extra 'pull' and leverage when starting my cut. I think the Bolognese will agree However I find fingering the quillon with a hard cut rather painful. I think the Germans (well, Meyer, at least) were looking for a larger angle towards the target at impact.
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Post by markus313 on May 25, 2019 7:41:09 GMT
But I think today we'd call Meyer's Rappier a sidesword. Everything that makes a rapier a better cutter also makes it a worse thruster. The question is what do you want to cut? Yup Perhaps a hollow grind is of help?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 25, 2019 8:05:56 GMT
Yes, same thought here. Oakeshott XVIII principle, hollow ground diamond cross section. Not good for tatami mats but enough for flesh. And still a stiff mid rip.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 25, 2019 9:35:33 GMT
But I think today we'd call Meyer's Rappier a sidesword. Everything that makes a rapier a better cutter also makes it a worse thruster. The question is what do you want to cut? I've been intrigued by the hollow ground, leaf-shaped tip, as seen on the Zorro themed sword Albion used to offer. Supposedly it has some basis in historicity, but I have never seen an antique example. It seems optimal for making the kinds of cuts best suited for thrust-centric fencing, namely cutting tendons on hands/wrists, and opening bloody wounds on the face and head. It also provides a wider wound channel in the thrust, without the added weight of wider profile the whole length of the blade.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 11:04:53 GMT
I've seen flat tip sections on the point of skinny rapier blades but the Albion sword a bit pronounced and maintains a diamond cross section. A bit of everything on that blade. kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AF36Many first empire French gentleman's and officer swords have wafer thin spatulate tips but without widening, which is what I have seen on some skinny 16th century rapiers. There are some great debates on the overall definition of rapiers but mass in motion, as well as blade cross section all play a part. Hilt weight actually adding momentum in rotation. So at what point does that added impetus in rotation compensate a skinnier, lighter blade with a slim cross section to then cut to the bone, aside from slashing with the tips? My not so sharp Windlass sidesword (proto rapier) was something I was using in cutting up empty cracker boxes but only harassed tatami. Had it been a lot sharper and with more practice, maybe but it was a fairly flexible blade as well. I never sharpened the Patton while I had it but did drive it into phone books a few times. There was a fellow cutting bamboo with a period Patton and the service swords were sword sharp.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 25, 2019 11:42:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 12:14:16 GMT
Yes, I'm quite familiar with the pages. "The Cavalry Sword Model 1913 [designed by Lt. Patton] is an ideal thrusting weapon and at the same time, one which can give a cutting blow at least one third harder than our former saber." The former saber being the civil war light cavalry/m1906
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 12:19:01 GMT
SBG's own ricwilly
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 12:48:53 GMT
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Post by mrbadexample on May 25, 2019 15:49:06 GMT
I’ve been surprised by the cutting performance of my Franken-rapier. I built it with a second quality blade and some hilt bits from MRL’s warehouse sale last year. There are pictures on the new acquisitions thread somewhere. Anyway, the blade is fairly narrow and reasonably stiff. It transitions from a hex to flat diamond cross section, and that transition is right around the sweet spot. I’d probably describe the balance as just ever so slightly forward. It won’t do much on cloth covered targets, but it will cleanly cut 3” green bamboo with a wrist driven mollinet. I doubt it could deliver lethal cuts, but it would really mess up a wrist or finger. Probably make a really bloody and distracting face or scalp cut too.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 25, 2019 21:13:49 GMT
Of late I’ve begun taking an interest in my Windlass Pilsen. The plan of the day was to compare my Pilsen and M1840 cutting abilities although I’m convenience the M1840 will out cut it. For whatever reason I decided to cancel. After reading this thread again I decided what the heck. It was too late to do both as the rains were about to set in, it’s that season. I managed to get out the stand and while filling a litre plastic bottle the rain started,so only one bottle. The rapier halved it, but I felt the impact shock slightly and the bottle parts fell, something I wasn’t expecting. Perhaps due to the first cut with no warm up in the rain had something to do with it. The rapier has some advantages for me as I expect my primary adversary will probably be wielding a machete and this has greater reach and machetes have no hand protection it should put the odds in my favour. I can play with his machete hand without giving him a chance to do much. The disadvantage is it’s long blade in tight quarters such as hallways, making the M1840 arguably more attractive. The big advantage for me with the Pilsen is the lack of excessive metal in the hilt decreasing the weight making it less fatiguing and faster. With either I intend to use a shield. I worry about extending my arm to a Latino with a machete regardless.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 26, 2019 0:56:39 GMT
Of late I’ve begun taking an interest in my Windlass Pilsen. The plan of the day was to compare my Pilsen and M1840 cutting abilities although I’m convenience the M1840 will out cut it. For whatever reason I decided to cancel. After reading this thread again I decided what the heck. It was too late to do both as the rains were about to set in, it’s that season. I managed to get out the stand and while filling a litre plastic bottle the rain started,so only one bottle. The rapier halved it, but I felt the impact shock slightly and the bottle parts fell, something I wasn’t expecting. Perhaps due to the first cut with no warm up in the rain had something to do with it. The rapier has some advantages for me as I expect my primary adversary will probably be wielding a machete and this has greater reach and machetes have no hand protection it should put the odds in my favour. I can play with his machete hand without giving him a chance to do much. The disadvantage is it’s long blade in tight quarters such as hallways, making the M1840 arguably more attractive. The big advantage for me with the Pilsen is the lack of excessive metal in the hilt decreasing the weight making it less fatiguing and faster. With either I intend to use a shield. I worry about extending my arm to a Latino with a machete regardless. Have you got an off hand dagger? I have become quite fond of main gauche daggers as of late in my fencing experience, And feel the protection and length of the blade would even the odds against a machete in a hallway using a thrusting sword.
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