reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 7:35:57 GMT
Thanks for the clarification that actually takes alot of weight off my chest because I always would judge swords and think if they were not forged they were no good. Now you do want a heat treat though correct? I read this online and I doubt after talking to you guys that it is true? (What is a stamped knife? Stamped knives are a cut out from a flat sheet of metal like a cookie cutter. Since they are not forged, their blades are less hard, durable, and sharp. Stamped knives don’t have real bolsters, which makes them less balanced and lighter.) The method of manufacture has no real bearing on final quality. Yes, you do want a heat treat and tempering to be done on a blade. In the end that is what will determine the quality of the sword apart from build quality. Not sure where the last part of your comment is from but it sounds like it's referring to modern stamped kitchen knives. Again the heat treat, tempering and build quality are what decides overall quality, not the method of manufacture. Ya it was from a thing about kitchen knives and I assumed it was like that with swords. The article seems to have got it wrong. I always hear people talk about how you can "Feel the difference" in a forged vs stamped knife and I was never rly sure.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 24, 2019 7:39:28 GMT
No, it's just different. It's a completely different and a fascinating, legitimate process. It takes skill and hard work, and is a thing to behold. In the end, it's all about how the smith wants to do it or feels would be the best way to do a job. All of the methods discussed have their place, and sometimes crossover. The mistake is to think one is worse than the other or useless. None of them are.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 24, 2019 7:41:59 GMT
If they're both made to the same specs, you couldn't ever tell. They would be and feel and function the exact same.
If you stamp out of 2mm steel but forge out a 5mm to 1mm distal taper then obviously there will be a big difference but at that point you will have two entirely different knives that should not be compared when thinking of manufacturing styles. So that's probably what that article did. A cheap and expensive object should not be compared eye to eye.
On the subject of forging being more work, as Adrian says it's just a different process, not necessarily more or less work or more or less quality than another.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 7:44:15 GMT
No, it's just different. It's a completely different and a fascinating, legitimate process. It takes skill and hard work, and is a thing to behold. In the end, it's all about how the smith wants to do it or feels would be the best way to do a job. All of the methods discussed have their place, and sometimes crossover. The mistake is to think one is worse than the other or useless. None of them are. Well I guess forging is nice cause the shape could be altered if not liked etc. What is the reason huawei are forged then?
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 7:44:45 GMT
If they're both made to the same specs, you couldn't ever tell. They would be and feel and function the exact same. If you stamp out of 2mm steel but forge out a 5mm to 1mm distal taper then obviously there will be a big difference but at that point you will have two entirely different knives that should not be compared when thinking of manufacturing styles. So that's probably what that article did. A cheap and expensive object should not be compared eye to eye. On the subject of forging being more work, as Adrian says it's just a different process, not necessarily more or less work or more or less quality than another. Thanks I am just trying to think why katana companies like huawei dont just stamp then
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 24, 2019 7:47:10 GMT
If they're both made to the same specs, you couldn't ever tell. They would be and feel and function the exact same. If you stamp out of 2mm steel but forge out a 5mm to 1mm distal taper then obviously there will be a big difference but at that point you will have two entirely different knives that should not be compared when thinking of manufacturing styles. So that's probably what that article did. A cheap and expensive object should not be compared eye to eye. On the subject of forging being more work, as Adrian says it's just a different process, not necessarily more or less work or more or less quality than another. Thanks I am just trying to think why katana companies like huawei dont just stamp then Could be any number of reasons, but I'm sure it's documented somewhere. Could be just what the company has to make them with, or what they could afford in their area when they started, or could be as well just what the owner and founder preferred.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 7:49:39 GMT
Thanks I am just trying to think why katana companies like huawei dont just stamp then Could be any number of reasons, but I'm sure it's documented somewhere. Could be just what the company has to make them with, or what they could afford in their area when they started, or could be as well just what the owner and founder preferred. Seems like forging would be cheaper but leave some disadvantages. Hey I love that sword u made btw it is rly cool! Did u hammer it at all then or just straight up cut out and heat treated?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 24, 2019 7:52:40 GMT
You somewhat answered that yourself: because you have a level of control when forging, namely the power to reset and move the metal, in the case of an error. With stock removal that chance is gone because the material is gone. All you can do is try to even it up, which removes more material. Combine that with the strong desire to have a traditionally made product and hand forging is a valid, desirable method. However it's a long, intensive and skilled process, and not a lot of people do it, so it is not good for mass production. Stamping and stock removal can be done with more mechanized means, which makes it quicker, more regular and cheaper. A stamped blade is not a finished product. It still needs to be ground to shape and heat treated. This is usually done by hand or machine.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 24, 2019 7:53:35 GMT
Could be any number of reasons, but I'm sure it's documented somewhere. Could be just what the company has to make them with, or what they could afford in their area when they started, or could be as well just what the owner and founder preferred. Seems like forging would be cheaper but leave some disadvantages. Hey I love that sword u made btw it is rly cool! Did u hammer it at all then or just straight up cut out and heat treated? Thanks. Cut, ground, heat treated, ground again, polished, and mounted. I did hammer the peen... so I guess it has a forged peen? New marketing technique, gonna sell that phrase to the various Pakistani makers I think. I'm not sure if it would be cheaper or not, or have disadvantages. My venture in forging ended with a spear head that I lost along the way, and I don't run a sword making business. But I would assume stamping to be cheaper on a mass scale where selling a lot of cheap swords is the MO.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 8:17:14 GMT
Seems like forging would be cheaper but leave some disadvantages. Hey I love that sword u made btw it is rly cool! Did u hammer it at all then or just straight up cut out and heat treated? Thanks. Cut, ground, heat treated, ground again, polished, and mounted. I did hammer the peen... so I guess it has a forged peen? New marketing technique, gonna sell that phrase to the various Pakistani makers I think. I'm not sure if it would be cheaper or not, or have disadvantages. My venture in forging ended with a spear head that I lost along the way, and I don't run a sword making business. But I would assume stamping to be cheaper on a mass scale where selling a lot of cheap swords is the MO. I will see if I can find a pic of the one knife I actually managed a little lol. The one I am thinking of is made of an old butter knife XD so it is more of a practice knife but is wicked sharp now that I re shaped it and sharpened it.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 8:20:50 GMT
You somewhat answered that yourself: because you have a level of control when forging, namely the power to reset and move the metal, in the case of an error. With stock removal that chance is gone because the material is gone. All you can do is try to even it up, which removes more material. Combine that with the strong desire to have a traditionally made product and hand forging is a valid, desirable method. However it's a long, intensive and skilled process, and not a lot of people do it, so it is not good for mass production. Stamping and stock removal can be done with more mechanized means, which makes it quicker, more regular and cheaper. A stamped blade is not a finished product. It still needs to be ground to shape and heat treated. This is usually done by hand or machine. I mean I like traditional but that doesnt always mean better. I do not like cold steel because I feel their katana is not traditional at all. I am sure my sword from SoN was probably flattened a bit with a power hammer and then ground out the rest. I like swords that are a mix of both. Or now that I know, swords that are stamped of carbon steel sound good to. A katana that is all done by hand may not be as good as one worked on by machines. Even if it is not traditionally made, that doesnt have to mean it lacks beauty. I understand now.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 8:28:15 GMT
Seems like forging would be cheaper but leave some disadvantages. Hey I love that sword u made btw it is rly cool! Did u hammer it at all then or just straight up cut out and heat treated? Thanks. Cut, ground, heat treated, ground again, polished, and mounted. I did hammer the peen... so I guess it has a forged peen? New marketing technique, gonna sell that phrase to the various Pakistani makers I think. I'm not sure if it would be cheaper or not, or have disadvantages. My venture in forging ended with a spear head that I lost along the way, and I don't run a sword making business. But I would assume stamping to be cheaper on a mass scale where selling a lot of cheap swords is the MO. So is the pakistani damascus just heated up and folded by a machine?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 24, 2019 8:54:51 GMT
You somewhat answered that yourself: because you have a level of control when forging, namely the power to reset and move the metal, in the case of an error. With stock removal that chance is gone because the material is gone. All you can do is try to even it up, which removes more material. Combine that with the strong desire to have a traditionally made product and hand forging is a valid, desirable method. However it's a long, intensive and skilled process, and not a lot of people do it, so it is not good for mass production. Stamping and stock removal can be done with more mechanized means, which makes it quicker, more regular and cheaper. A stamped blade is not a finished product. It still needs to be ground to shape and heat treated. This is usually done by hand or machine. I mean I like traditional but that doesnt always mean better. I do not like cold steel because I feel their katana is not traditional at all. I am sure my sword from SoN was probably flattened a bit with a power hammer and then ground out the rest. I like swords that are a mix of both. Or now that I know, swords that are stamped of carbon steel sound good to. A katana that is all done by hand may not be as good as one worked on by machines. Even if it is not traditionally made, that doesnt have to mean it lacks beauty. I understand now.
Cold Steel doesn't make their own stuff, they source it and rebrand it. In the case of their katana they have generally sourced them from Huanuo, a quality forge. They make them to Cold Steel's specifications using the common practice of hand forging and stock removal. Some folks like them, some folks don't. I wouldn't call them any more or less traditional than most other production katana.
In the end, it's the knowledge and skill of the maker/labor, the quality of materials, a good quality control regime and the design that will make a blade of any kind good or bad, be it a one-off custom or a production piece.
As I understand it, Pakistani Damascus is made the same way as elsewhere with the broad strokes. A worker or workers stack the steel layers, heat it, then fold it by hand hammering, power hammer or hydraulic press. Repeat as necessary until the desired layer count or pattern is reached. Where they tend to differ from higher priced or higher quality pieces is that the finish work may not be as even and it may or may not have been heat treated, or it may have been given a sloppy,hasty or inappropriate heat treatment. The point is not to produce heirloom quality, it's to get them made and out of there fast. Quality is not a top concern. You can absolutely get amazing, top-notch stuff from there, but it's going to cost you top-notch prices, just like anywhere else.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 8:56:31 GMT
I mean I like traditional but that doesnt always mean better. I do not like cold steel because I feel their katana is not traditional at all. I am sure my sword from SoN was probably flattened a bit with a power hammer and then ground out the rest. I like swords that are a mix of both. Or now that I know, swords that are stamped of carbon steel sound good to. A katana that is all done by hand may not be as good as one worked on by machines. Even if it is not traditionally made, that doesnt have to mean it lacks beauty. I understand now.
Cold Steel doesn't make their own stuff, they source it and rebrand it. In the case of their katana they have generally sourced them from Huanuo, a quality forge. They make them to Cold Steel's specifications using the common practice of hand forging and stock removal. Some folks like them, some folks don't. I wouldn't call them any more or less traditional than most other production katana.
In the end, it's the knowledge and skill of the maker/labor, the quality of materials, a good quality control regime and the design that will make a blade of any kind good or bad, be it a one-off custom or a production piece.
As I understand it, Pakistani Damascus is made the same way as elsewhere with the broad strokes. A worker or workers stack the steel layers, heat it, then fold it by hand hammering, power hammer or hydraulic press. Repeat as necessary until the desired layer count or pattern is reached. Where they tend to differ from higher priced or higher quality pieces is that the finish work may not be as even and it may or may not have been heat treated, or it may have been given a sloppy,hasty or inappropriate heat treatment. The point is not to produce heirloom quality, it's to get them made and out of there fast. Quality is not a top concern. You can absolutely get amazing, top-notch stuff from there, but it's going to cost you top-notch prices, just like anywhere else.
So price comes down to man hours at the end of the day? Seems most swords are slightly forged and then grinded away.
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Post by pvsampson on May 24, 2019 8:57:41 GMT
Some of the most sought after blades are made by stock removal. Albion cut their blanks and CNC machine them,then polish and fit them.This means they can get the same results,( well they should anyway),time after time when doing a run on the various models. Get the blank,put the dimensions into the machine and every blade comes out the same.Should be easier to make scabbards to a standard for each particular model as well.
Fable blades are some of the most beautiful blades you will see,and done by stock removal as well.
Honestly,there is no technical reason to forge these days,as modern steels are consistent in their structure and properties.And easy to procure. I respect and do like the fact that some swords are forged and the workmanship that takes is an art in itself and has a certain nostalgia,but in modern times it is unnecessary based on the fact the original purpose of forging was necessary to create a usable steel. The foundry does that work now.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 9:04:32 GMT
Some of the most sought after blades are made by stock removal. Albion cut their blanks and CNC machine them,then polish and fit them.This means they can get the same results,( well they should anyway),time after time when doing a run on the various models. Get the blank,put the dimensions into the machine and every blade comes out the same.Should be easier to make scabbards to a standard for each particular model as well. Fable blades are some of the most beautiful blades you will see,and done by stock removal as well. Honestly,there is no technical reason to forge these days,as modern steels are consistent in their structure and properties.And easy to procure. I respect and do like the fact that some swords are forged and the workmanship that takes is an art in itself and has a certain nostalgia,but in modern times it is unnecessary based on the fact the original purpose of forging was necessary to create a usable steel. The foundry does that work now. Tbh if they had this technology in ancient japan I bet they would have cut their swords to.
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Post by pvsampson on May 24, 2019 9:15:07 GMT
Some of the most sought after blades are made by stock removal. Albion cut their blanks and CNC machine them,then polish and fit them.This means they can get the same results,( well they should anyway),time after time when doing a run on the various models. Get the blank,put the dimensions into the machine and every blade comes out the same.Should be easier to make scabbards to a standard for each particular model as well. Fable blades are some of the most beautiful blades you will see,and done by stock removal as well. Honestly,there is no technical reason to forge these days,as modern steels are consistent in their structure and properties.And easy to procure. I respect and do like the fact that some swords are forged and the workmanship that takes is an art in itself and has a certain nostalgia,but in modern times it is unnecessary based on the fact the original purpose of forging was necessary to create a usable steel. The foundry does that work now. Tbh if they had this technology in ancient japan I bet they would have cut their swords to. Any society would have.Mass producing weapons has been around a very long time. The main difference to 1000 years ago and now is the steel quality and the production methods with electric machinery. These days there is no need for a smith to even fold steel into "damascus" or san mai as billets are able to be bought. But as I mentioned,it is the nostalgia of the smith heating a piece of metal,taking a hammer to it and steadily producing a functional piece of art. But also,a sword maker that uses the stock removal method,still has to have a knowledge of what they are doing to produce a piece of art,or else all that you end up with is a piece of sharpened steel.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 24, 2019 9:16:14 GMT
So price comes down to man hours at the end of the day? Seems most swords are slightly forged and then grinded away.
Labor costs, material costs, machine and shop costs, general business overhead. All factor into the price. If you use cheap and/or unskilled labor, cheap materials, cut corners, live in an area that doesn't have or has poor quality governing bodies controlling working conditions and don't have to pay high rent then you can produce a lot of product that is cheap. Not really good, maybe terrible, but cheap and easy.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 9:20:29 GMT
Tbh if they had this technology in ancient japan I bet they would have cut their swords to. Any society would have.Mass producing weapons has been around a very long time. The main difference to 1000 years ago and now is the steel quality and the production methods with electric machinery. These days there is no need for a smith to even fold steel into "damascus" or san mai as billets are able to be bought. But as I mentioned,it is the nostalgia of the smith heating a piece of metal,taking a hammer to it and steadily producing a functional piece of art. But also,a sword maker that uses the stock removal method,still has to have a knowledge of what they are doing to produce a piece of art,or else all that you end up with is a piece of sharpened steel. Good ol pakistani damscus
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 24, 2019 9:20:58 GMT
So price comes down to man hours at the end of the day? Seems most swords are slightly forged and then grinded away.
Labor costs, material costs, machine and shop costs, general business overhead. All factor into the price. If you use cheap and/or unskilled labor, cheap materials, cut corners, live in an area that doesn't have or has poor quality governing bodies controlling working conditions and don't have to pay high rent then you can produce a lot of product that is cheap. Not really good, maybe terrible, but cheap and easy.
Ya, never good to cut corners.
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