SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Dec 31, 2008 15:39:47 GMT
You know, marc, I may not agree with you on this (for once), but I really like the way you present your argument. A refreshing change from the recent discussion turmoil, lol. +1 to you, friend!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 15:59:54 GMT
I have to say that far away the kit rae swords look nice but close up they kinda make me sick in a way. I think that a sword, any sword that is not a "sword" is ugly to me. A sword can be very simple with the most simple furniture but if it's a real sword, meaning it is made to kill it is still beautiful. What I mean by that is not that they should be used to kill at all but that they could handle it, they have the quality to be used as a weapon. And if that is true, you will see it on the blade and on the furniture. A cheness katana with it's pricetag and it's mass production is still beautiful because it's a pretty fair replica of a weapon that has such technology behind it, thousand years has made that weapon to what it is today and to what it was before katanas became illegal in Japan. A hanwei medieval sword can be very beautiful even tho it's cheap and mass produced but the makers have still made the sword thinking that it is a weapon, that it could be used as weapon. A kit rae sword is something made to look cool to attract buyers, not something thought out to be useful. So for me when I look at a kit rae sword the word garbage only comes to mind. Even if I think of the kit rae swords as art(which many swords from old times are) I still think they are ugly because of the quality and the impractical shapes etc. If the kit rae swords would be more thought out and resemble a real sword more, then I would prolly think that they too are beautiful. Just my thoughts  |
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Post by steelservant on Dec 31, 2008 17:34:23 GMT
I do understand that everyone has their own views based on their outlook on a subject, and on their own areas of interest. I agree on the form and function of a functional sword versus a fantasy sword. But, in that, I think you have to look at the terms, and this is what I think people loose sight of when discussing these swords.
"Fantasy". It means unreal, of the imagination. So, why does something of the realm of fantasy need to be functional and practical. The makers of these blades openly tell you thet they are for display only, are not functional and not to "play" with them. And to say it cannot be called art because you cannot use it functionally to cut or even kill is rediculous. By that thinking, a Rembrant painting is not art because you cannot cut or kill with it? If you know anything about Kit Rae you would know that there is a whole intertwined theme of the "Swords of the Ancients" involving art that he has painted, a story that he has written, and the swords that are the FANTASY weapons from the stories.
"Functional" means that it is useful and practical. Makers of functional swords intend them to cut efficiently and to be used for that.
People try to meld both things into one group and say "It must meet my criteria for the group that I'm interested in, even though it is not of that group.". It's like saying that you are a fan of consumer electronics, but you hate your TV because it won't play your MP3's or CD's. If you try to keep the "fantasy" and the "functional" in mind when you discuss them, it becomes much more easy to see them and judge them for what they ARE, not what you WANT or NEED them to be.
I don't mean to get on a tirait about it. I just don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping the term FANTASY. Maybe too many people hold their swords in their hands and wish for another life where they can be a real warrior and kill someone. Then any sword represents a fantasy, and the person blurs the line. Then you need to pick up a phone and call a counselor and get back to reality before you end up on the eveing news. Has there really been anyone on this forum who has ever REALLY found themselves having to defend themselves with one of their swords? IT'S 2009! Just about any attack you might experience in these modern times would warrant a gun, not a sword. I think too many sword wielders ARE stuck in fantasy land. Grow up and stop treating these serious weapons like toys. There is a safe, practical and very real place for functional swords, and a viable reason for them. But in todays world, very, very few people will ever use one as a weapon against another human being to defend your life. There is also a place for fantasy swords....on the wall...as art.
Final note. If you are one of those guys who does find yourself in your back yard wearing some form of armour and swinging around a dangerous sword like you are a warrior, and you are not an actor or involved in histotical re-incactment as part of a club or as a job, I suggest that you take the money that you were going to spend on your next sword and go spend it on some serious therapy. You have serious insecurity issues, and are potentially DANGEROUS! If your cutting bottles and matts to test functional blades, that is very cool, and carry on.
WOW! Damn! Did I go off or what? Sorry about that!
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 31, 2008 18:26:11 GMT
Little of that makes any sense at all...IMO Lets see if I can address it: I do understand that everyone has their own views based on their outlook on a subject, and on their own areas of interest. I agree on the form and function of a functional sword versus a fantasy sword. But, in that, I think you have to look at the terms, and this is what I think people loose sight of when discussing these swords. Agreed , but you seem bent on doing just what you accused others of doing...try to make people see it your way, rather than just explaining your position Thats right , fantasy does mean that , and well done fantasy takes you to an unreal world and makes you believe.. Like Tolkien, King's Dark Tower, and the first six books of Jordan's Wheel of Time . Fantasy is of the imagination, but those that do it well go to great pains to make their fantasy worlds plausable , and functional... a fantasy story that does not create a believable illusion is poorly done.... SO yes , fantasy must be "functional " in its way... but the Kit Raes aren't just claiming to be fantasy... they are claiming to be fantasy " swords" ... so that adds a whole new twist... I don't expect art to be deadly, ... but swords ...yeah... they are deadly, so how can something be an "art sword" if it is not first a sword? The thing that makes a sword art IMO is beauty and grace imbued into an instrument of death... Huh? You can't screw around the context like that and still claim lucidity... i never compared a Rembrant to a sword, I compared it to a poster... A Rembrant functions very well as what it is ...high art... a poster is merely pop culture... Similarly , a Lundemo Warder is an Art Sword due to its functionality and its imagination, or a high end Nihonto is an art sword due to the sheer perfection of the craft they represent... Kit Rae swords are pop culture based loosly on swords ..again just my opinion. So? what does that mean to me? There are comic books about the same subject... and popular fiction novels... still doesn't make them art... Now Tolkien... that was art... and the fantasy weapons from those stories are plausible... but I still wouldn't consider a United Cutlery Glamdring as art... but a Lundemo Glamdring ... yummmmm Really? What is useful or practical about a sword in 2009? Not espescially ... True art swords cost thousands and many collectors never cut with them... they are art because they represent the pinnacle of the craft... Now some folks make functional swords that are so supremly functional that they become art... not the swords themselves , but their functionality is the art... Now who's criteria but mine would I be interested in when considering whether I like something or not? Your criteria means diddly squat to me when I'm deciding what I like. Buying a Kit Rae is more like saying you are a fan of consumer electronics , and then buying a replica TV that doesn't work... doen't function is just Television Art... something that looks roughly like a TV... but isn't I believe that I am keeping fantasy and function firmly in mind when I discuss them , and am judging them for what they are... just as a model car is not a car, a non-functional sword is not a sword..it is more like a model of one... I'm into swords , not models. otherwise I would be a model collector... But when I wanted to watch TV I'd still want to watch an actual TV, and not a model of one... See thats nice... the last resort of a poor debater is to resort to personal attacks I have a firm grasp of fantasy and reality... thats why i dig real swords ... not fantasy sword models... See, a sword is a weapon... and the art is not the sword itself... it is the prowess that goes into making this extremely deadly, functional thing. The process of perfecting skills that goes into learning how to use them is an Art as well... so there we go... the pursuit of perfection that goes into making something extremely functional and among the best of its kind or makes its user among the most skillful at its use...that is the art... the sword is secondary... So a sword is a symbol of the art that is associated with it... mastery of craft... and cheap copies of swords? Well they are just cheap copies of swords..no matter how many skulls , spikes , or serations you lavish upon them... If you like cheap copies of swords , thats cool with me... just dn't insist that I'm supposed to consider them swords....you can consider them htever you want. And yes... I do cut in my backyard...but i don't own armor... I train in the Japanese Sword ARTS .. and practice to persue perfection... I cut with production katana ...and guess what ? THEY AREN"T ART EITHER.... they are functional training tools and weapons... but they aren't art... I don't own armor, but many people do ... they dress in it too... its called recreationism... and it is Fantasy ... that thing you claim you understand so much better than others do... but instead of a crappy sword copy on a wall , they are actively engaging in living fantasy... It is creative, and a worthwhie pursuit... and suggesting they need to see a shrink because they enjoy it is really bad form... Now , all that said... enjoy model swords if you wish... I could care less if you do... but you stand very little chance of succeeding at telling me what to think or how to think it... How about you enjoy waht you enjoy, and I'll enjoy what I enjoy... and no need to call anyone psycho over it? |
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Post by steelservant on Dec 31, 2008 18:47:59 GMT
Well, I'm sorry if you viewed what I said a s a personal attck. If you had thoroughly read what I said, it was not. I specifically stated that those who use functional swords for testing, in reinactmets, as part of clubs or especially are involved in matrial arts are NOT psychos. These involve very specific and reasonable forms of art, creativity and discipline. That is why I excluded those.
I agree that we will disagree on this one item. My views on fantasy blades seem to strike a nerve with you. I assure you that your views on functional blades and your love for them and use of them absolutely DOES NOt offend or bother me in any way. I am sure that I could learn quite allot from you.
Sorry if I offended you. None was meant, and judging from what you've said about your preferences and practices, nothing derogatory was directed at you.
Best of luck to you in 2009, Marc. I think this subject has been beaten to death.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 31, 2008 18:49:05 GMT
Best of luck to you in 2009, Marc. Same to you |
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 31, 2008 19:34:54 GMT
I'll add my thoughts as gently as possible...  I know Paul likes that one Kit Rae sword that he has, and maybe had a change of heart on his opinion of non functional SLO's at least in regards to the Kit Rae sword. However, in response to the idea that new members bring in different opinions... that may be true, however, that doesn't cover the whole of it for me. These are the SBG forums... and SBG is a site dedicated to FUNCTIONAL swords in the Sub $300 price range. It's mentioned again and again all over the main site... this site is dedicated to helping collectors find REAL swords, not pretty Sword Like Objects that will break the first time you try to cut something with it. Fantasy swords CAN be amazing to look at and still be VERY functional... just look at the Awesome work oof our very orwn Forum members at Fable Blades and BKS. They both make some very creative and attractive swords that are very much functional. Kit Rae's work may very well be attractive to some... but they are not swords, even tho he may call them that. A sword needs to cut, stab, parry... it needs to do what a sword does. A screwdriver that won't tighten or lossen screws is not a screwdriver... a Fridge that LOOKS really awesome but does not keep things cool is not a fridge. You get my point... ;D You CAN have fantasy design and functional sword... some of our very of forum members have MORE then proven this by making beautiful fantasy designs that cut and stab with the best of em... so the argument that Kit Rae are 'fantasy swords' and therefor should not be judged harshly for not performing does not hold any water for me. It can be done. So... I don't get 'sick' thinking about Kit Rae swords... nor do I look down on those who do like them. I *DO* however think their disscussion here is out of place... as this place is dedicated to FUNCTIONAL real swords... not SLO's. And make no mistake... thats what Kit Rae's are... SLO's. I'd be interested in seeing a review of the upcoming functional Kit Rae swords that were mentioned... |
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 31, 2008 19:46:21 GMT
Strictly speaking, I reckon this site is dedicated to "functional sub $300" swords, however we do seem to waver across that line from time to time. To our betterment I think.
We occasionally discuss and review swords over that price line and even have a section dedicated to weapons other than swords.
Some people even "gasp" never use their weapons for fear of marring their finish.
I think if people want to talk about fantasy collectors pieces or whatever then let em. If there is enough interest to support such it will thrive if not it will fade away from lack of attention with no need for any lines to be drawn or rules made.
Me, I don't care for rules and lines and the like.
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Post by steelservant on Jan 1, 2009 2:40:21 GMT
Well stated, RicWilly. I couldn't agree more. I have interests in both types of swords, or swords and sword imposters, I guess I will say from now on. It is my interest in functional swords that brought me to SBG.
Not to be at all argumentative with Shadowhowler, and please understand that I do respect your opinion. I do understand the passion that makes you say that the discussion of fantasy swords has no place here. I wonder if the gentleman that started this very thread agrees, after all, he started a thread specifically about fantasy blades. That was Paul Southren, wasn't it? I can't speak for him, but I would guess that he would like to see all sword related views openly discussed on the forum of his guide. Especially his own. Just guessing.
Have a safe and happy New Year, everyone!
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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 1, 2009 13:08:42 GMT
Yup... Paul himself did a psudo-review of a Kit Rae 'sword'... so one can assume that he does not mind the disscussion of such items at ALL since he started it. I agree with Ric, for the most part. The less rules and regulations the better... I like the free atmosphere we have here to discuss anything, and I would never say 'Hey! You have no right to talk about that here!' because that would make me a raging mega asshat. ;D I was just offering my opinion on the Kit Rae stuff, and what I think it means in relation to SBG, and what SBG means to me. Thats all it is... my opinion. No more or less valid then anyone eles. Peace, my brothers... and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! |
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 1, 2009 14:07:14 GMT
Well stated, RicWilly. I couldn't agree more. I have interests in both types of swords, or swords and sword imposters, I guess I will say from now on. ! No need to change the way you talk or think for me... you are perfectly entitled to your opinion... I was explaining mine... just don't expect me to feel like you, and I won't expect you to feel like me.... ;D Chances are noone thinks like me but me anyway, I'd be suprised if anyone did... |
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Post by YlliwCir on Jan 1, 2009 18:10:01 GMT
Opinions well put forth all around. Let me jump on the koombayah train. I like these discussions, believe it or not it expands my mind which is always in need. Sure we get a bit rigorous in expressions but that just is a mark of our passions.
I consider you all my friends. I don't require my friends to agree with me all the time. I'd be lonely if I did.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 1, 2009 20:25:40 GMT
Opinions well put forth all around. Let me jump on the koombayah train. I like these discussions, believe it or not it expands my mind which is always in need. Sure we get a bit rigorous in expressions but that just is a mark of our passions. I consider you all my friends. I don't require my friends to agree with me all the time. I'd be lonely if I did. Amen brother... My best friend and I have VASTLY differing political views... but our personal prefrences and codes of conduct/honor are very much the same. My wife and I have very different interests and backgrounds... and yet, at our CORES, are very much the same. I enjoy having friends who challenge my ideas and cuase me to think... who wants to be surrounded by a pack of yes-men? Let us be a pack of wolves, not a heard of sheep. We still work beautifuly together, still have similar aims and goals... but each of us is a deadly original. ;D |
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Post by steelservant on Jan 2, 2009 0:44:27 GMT
Very eloquently put, Shadowhowler. True words of wisdom.
We forge ahead as brothers with open minds, open hearts, and the strength of steel behind us.
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 2, 2009 12:15:56 GMT
I disagree with you Marc that all fantasy swords must be functional, especially one that does not claim to be. Any medium can be used to express art, practicality is not a law when it comes to such things. ALL mediums are prone to radical interpretations.
Since Rembrandt was used as an earlier example, I will continue the painting analogy (a common artistic medium). Conventional painting used to be confined to realism, that is, artists became famous for how well they could portray the world in a painting; how real they could make the painting, much how many of us prefer swords based on real counterparts. Some of us prefer the grisly reality that these were weapons of war, and they should look, handle and perform as such out of respect and interest to the past, to OUR past.
But Picasso felt differently. He challenged the way the world was viewed not necessarily because we saw people with lopsided faces, but instead he proved that art can be valid and appreciated even if it does not follow the conventional rules. Picasso's art is both loved and criticized the world over, but it IS art, and it jump started a massive movement towards the abstract that no amount of criticism could invalidate. In some ways, his legacy has affected the sword market as well. They are one man's interpretation of our history, of how far we've come, an expression of his passions. Just because they do not follow conventional trends, and because they do not appeal to everyone's tastes, does not invalidate the art which he has created.
Art in an expression of one's soul through a medium, it is limitless and endearing. Love it or hate it, the man makes art.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 2, 2009 14:20:09 GMT
I disagree with you Marc that all fantasy swords must be functional, especially one that does not claim to be. Any medium can be used to express art, practicality is not a law when it comes to such things. ALL mediums are prone to radical interpretations. Since Rembrandt was used as an earlier example, I will continue the painting analogy (a common artistic medium). Conventional painting used to be confined to realism, that is, artists became famous for how well they could portray the world in a painting; how real they could make the painting, much how many of us prefer swords based on real counterparts. Some of us prefer the grisly reality that these were weapons of war, and they should look, handle and perform as such out of respect and interest to the past, to OUR past. But Picasso felt differently. He challenged the way the world was viewed not necessarily because we saw people with lopsided faces, but instead he proved that art can be valid and appreciated even if it does not follow the conventional rules. Picasso's art is both loved and criticized the world over, but it IS art, and it jump started a massive movement towards the abstract that no amount of criticism could invalidate. In some ways, his legacy has affected the sword market as well. They are one man's interpretation of our history, of how far we've come, an expression of his passions. Just because they do not follow conventional trends, and because they do not appeal to everyone's tastes, does not invalidate the art which he has created. Art in an expression of one's soul through a medium, it is limitless and endearing. Love it or hate it, the man makes art. A lucid , well thought out reply... still don't agree though... sure a Picasso is art... its just a different interpretation of vision... I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that swords aren't art. Swords are weapons. Swordmaking as a craft , is elevated to an art by the masters of that craft. The art of sword making is the art of making a durable , efficient ,eminently functional weapon. So swords are made so well that they , by extention are called art, but the actual art is the crafting of it.... Music can be art, or music can be pop culture... but if it were to cease to function as music,that is abandon music theory, meter , rhythm, it would be considered noise ...not art, not even music... Kit Rae's craftings abandon the very nature of the shape they take,...failing to become a sword, or a fruit of the craft of swordmaking... There 's a reason sword like object is entrenched in the vernacular of sword appreciators... guys like Kit Rae are a big part of that... But hey! viva la difference as teh French would say.... A picture says a thousand words , yes? Rembrandt : Art  Poster : Pop Culture  Jake Powning :?  Kit Rae : ?  |
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 2, 2009 16:36:05 GMT
A lucid , well thought out reply... still don't agree though... sure a Picasso is art... its just a different interpretation of vision... I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that swords aren't art. Swords are weapons. Swordmaking as a craft , is elevated to an art by the masters of that craft. The art of sword making is the art of making a durable , efficient ,eminently functional weapon. So swords are made so well that they , by extention are called art, but the actual art is the crafting of it.... Music can be art, or music can be pop culture... but if it were to cease to function as music,that is abandon music theory, meter , rhythm, it would be considered noise ...not art, not even music... Kit Rae's craftings abandon the very nature of the shape they take,...failing to become a sword, or a fruit of the craft of swordmaking... First off, Marc, +1 for a good reply. I still disagree, though. I agree with you that I prefer historical (or at least historically-based and functional) swords, but I disagree with the idea of it all. Of looking down on it and saying it's not art, just because you don't like it personally. Swords CAN be art, just like painting. Painting is a craft, and it's elevated to an art by masters of that craft. But being a master does not mean you have to do the same thing other people are doing. Picasso didn't, neither did Pollock, or Warhol. They mastered painting, but in a different fashion. Kit Rae does not appeal to history buffs, or people in the market for functional swords. But he isn't trying to. He's got a market in mind and he's going for it. He's putting his vision of what he feels is magical and fantastic and he's getting paid to do it. Picasso wasn't trying to sell his paintings to people who wanted realism, no! He was just doing his thing and doing something different. Doing what HE wanted. It's an individualist thing. I'm not asking you to enjoy Kit's work. To be honest I find most of it over the top...I am asking you to merely acknowledge the validity of his art, and keep on enjoying your preferences. Like I said before, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not valid. I personally don't find much of Picasso's work enjoyable, either. But to be fair, I think you posted an unflattering picture of Kit's work. This is more tasteful (the only piece of his I would own):  Could he use more historical blade types? Sure, I'd like that. But it would also bring the idea across that he somehow intends his pieces to function or replicate historical work. And that is counter-productive and could end up with someone hurt. To bring up your SLO comment, as well, I've come to understand it as being mostly representative of those twenty-dollar, Filipino-made pot metal blades that fall apart when you take them out of the box. The ones held together with Elmer's Glue and a rubber band. At least, when the term is used in a negative light. We also have fictional/fantasy firearms around. Fantasy bows, over the top axes, etc. Where is the militia raising their pitchforks over those products? |
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 2, 2009 17:23:27 GMT
First off, Marc, +1 for a good reply. Same to you...this a great conversation... and not an argument...a civil exchange of ideas... and I am enjoying it ...so +1 back atcha Me too ;D viva la differenceOh no , you misunderstand me... I hate opera , Wagner, symphonies , etc... but recognize they are art... i love rock and roll, punk, metal etc. but recognize that they are not art, they are popular culture... I hate gourmet dinners and most of the delicasies like foie gras and poached salmon and escargo that many seem to relish... but I recognise that it is culinary art... I love cheeseburgers, BBQ , Chilidogs, and pizza... but realize it is pop culture at best...and only junk food at worst... I hate Chaucer, and well.... you get the idea... Agreed, swords that are particularly fine examples of the craft become art by extention... Of course to be a master you don't have to do the same thing as other people... but the masters you mention have one thing in common... they produced paintings, not photographic reproductions of paintings... Lets go back to chefs... a chef creates an unique dish ... a masterpiece of the culinary arts... he is considered a master... If that same chef created something that looked the same, but that you couldn't eat... how could he be a master chef? He may be a master at recreating food... but not a master chef. Bingo... pop culture Ah but you see...Picasso was not creating with a market in mind, and coming up with great schemes to sell his "art" ... he created for the sake of creating...truly an artist.... Have you seen his early work? Way more traditional...then he began exploring concepts.... Personally, I don't like in either.... I'm a Van Gogh and Dali guy... Again, agreed.... most things that are valid culture, or art I despise... but still have to recognise their validity... Kit Rae? not so much. I'm sure it has its place... but that place is far away from me...LOL... IMHO it is more suiting to a comic book shop than an art gallery... More suited to a 13 yearolds wall than a museum... I thought it was very representative of his work,,,which IMO tasteful doesn't enter into...if it was unflattering, well all the more my point... See we differ there ... I could care less about historical...I dif functional... what I think he should do is make his designs functional... hell they sell sharp now... that seems to me to bring across the idea they might be functional as well...espescially since much of his target market doesn't know better The term is generally always used in a negative light , and encompasses everything from what you mention , to Kit Rae to overweight "functional" crowbars like some of the companies discussed here. It can be a well put together piece of crap, and still be a piece of crap. I'd imagine on the bow and firearm forums... in fact , there are some negative reactions to fantasy firearms right here in our firearm forum... like the double barrel revolver..LOL BUT ...to be clear, I have nothing against fantasy swords... I love em.. The Powning blade I posted is a fantasy piece...and a masterpiece BUT ... you don't go to thefiringline.com (gun forum) to talk about toy guns.... savvy? Whew !! Good thing !! ;D Sorry , that s asking way too much of me... What I will do is acknowlege YOUR right to consider it valid art if YOU wish... IMO it is only pop culture....and not even good popculture, like Big Macs, Pizza Hut, Conan, AC/DC ..... But thats why the world has so much to offer...because tastes vary... viva la difference [/quote] |
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 2, 2009 18:03:44 GMT
Fair enough. All good and valid points, my friend. ;D I also agree that Kit's work should be sold dulled. Sharp SLO's do worry me because uneducated people simply do not know the difference.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 2, 2009 20:54:31 GMT
Just as a point of interest here is what Kit Rae had to say about his work on a SFI thread.
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