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Post by jarkatta on May 11, 2019 23:43:03 GMT
Hi all, new member here.
Looking to buy my first katana, and I'll be jumping straight into the deep end with a Howard Clark L6. I plan on having this mounted in shirasaya and I'm looking at which wood would be best.
Right now, I'm leaning towards keeping it traditional. Doing some research, I see "nurizaya" and "honoki" woods were used. Is one of these better/more commonly used than the other?
In the small chance I choose something exotic, I might go with some gaboon ebony. In any case, are there certain woods/characteristics in wood that I want to avoid?
And if it makes a difference, regardless of what wood I choose, I'll have it coated in black lacquer.
Thanks!
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Post by shobutengu on May 11, 2019 23:46:22 GMT
you should avoid acidic wood or any types of wood from trees that produce sap. if you need help i can put you in contact with a couple of shirasaya makers in the U.S. Their price varies from 300 to around 600 so it's up to you on what you want.
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Post by pvsampson on May 12, 2019 5:06:21 GMT
you should avoid acidic wood or any types of wood from trees that produce sap. if you need help i can put you in contact with a couple of shirasaya makers in the U.S. Their price varies from 300 to around 600 so it's up to you on what you want. This has my curiosity piqued. When you state trees that produce sap,do you mean something like Pines? Does this apply to all carbon steels? What about Australian hardwoods? I have some Aussie timber that has been stacked for over thirty years,hard and was planning on using as handle material.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 12, 2019 6:30:49 GMT
There is a specific wood desired for shirasayas, that doesn’t come to mind at the moment, maybe Timo or someone will chime in. As for me, it’s 0030 and I need sleep. Shirasayas are not lacquered nor painted as this defeats the purpose. A shirasaya is a storage package for a blade until it can find a home and the wood it is encased in needs to breathe otherwise rust. The wood is not chosen because it's pretty.
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Post by pvsampson on May 12, 2019 6:45:53 GMT
There is a specific wood desired for shirasayas, that doesn’t come to mind at the moment, maybe Timo or someone will chime in. As for me, it’s 0030 and I need sleep. Shirasayas are not lacquered nor painted as this defeats the purpose. A shirasayas is a storage package for a blade until it can find a home and the wood it is encased in needs to breathe otherwise rust. The wood is not chosen because it's pretty. Thanks,I understand the requirements now. It makes sense that specific timbers are used for the reasons you stated.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 12, 2019 8:02:22 GMT
It's a magnolia (magnolia obovata), the wood is called "Nurizaya" or "Ho" or "Honoki"
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 12, 2019 9:17:24 GMT
Thanks,I understand the requirements now. It makes sense that specific timbers are used for the reasons you stated. Couldn’t sleep and found this by Jon Andresen posted in comments in “Vlog Blog Sword Log 31: Rambling about shirasaya 6/21/17” video on YouTube. I would give the URL except that would bring up the video. The video is informative and I recommend a watch. “Thanks for addressing shirasaya. Every sword should have a shirasaya, a white or resting saya. Shirasaya are different from lacquered or nurisaya in their internal and external shaping. As a general rule ovoid shirasaya are higher-end meant for better blades; it is actually more difficult to make a nice ovoid shirasaya than a faceted piece. The Japanese use honoki wood, which is Magnolia obovata. They age the wood for up to a decade so almost no moisture remains. It is soft, carves nicely, has a bit of natural wax that is beneficial, forms a nice patina, and is attractive. The finest pieces will have so called tiger stripping, which is a chatoyance from the grain pattern. Shirasaya are usually thicker a little than nurisaya since don't have to account for the thickness of the lacquer for a manageable shape and for extra measure of protection. Inside there is a pocket off the end of the kissaki for excess oil to collect. Shirasaya can often be split open, cleaned and glued (rice glue) back together again if you know what you are doing, and some fancy styles include a delicate wooden sleeve that is removable for super easy cleaning of the inside. Outside Japan honoki is hard to find. Red alder and basswood are acceptable substitutes, but will never look like honoki so may throw off a nihonto collector used to seeing honoki pieces. Not only should have a shirasaya but also a shirasaya bag, which averages out the weather conditions and provides a bit of mechanical protection. Lacquer does not breath, which accelerates rust formation. Shirasaya are the safest, most chemically stable place for blades. I guess a totally desiccated environment free from oxygen would also work so long as the blade is protected from mechanical damage.”
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 12, 2019 9:18:12 GMT
It's a magnolia (magnolia obovata), the wood is called "Nurizaya" or "Ho" or "Honoki" To give a short answer Magnolia obovate = honoki wood.
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Post by manville on May 12, 2019 14:04:03 GMT
My first project for a new blade I recently purchased is to make a shirasaya for it. Anyone know where I could buy honoki wood or a similar traditional shirasaya wood?
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Post by shobutengu on May 12, 2019 14:50:57 GMT
you should avoid acidic wood or any types of wood from trees that produce sap. if you need help i can put you in contact with a couple of shirasaya makers in the U.S. Their price varies from 300 to around 600 so it's up to you on what you want. This has my curiosity piqued. When you state trees that produce sap,do you mean something like Pines? Does this apply to all carbon steels? What about Australian hardwoods? I have some Aussie timber that has been stacked for over thirty years,hard and was planning on using as handle material. sometimes there can be minuscule or minutes amounts of resins/saps still trapped in the layers of sapwood that can cause oxidation/corrosion to metal/steel of the blades. i don't know much about australian hardwoods to give you a definite answer but i would choose a wood that is easy to work with , "air able" in that it allows moisture to be released , soft that it won't damage or scratch the blade , and neutral in PH. i would choose something like red alder , polar , or some type of magnolia wood.
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Post by shobutengu on May 12, 2019 14:55:25 GMT
i took this snippet from ted tenold on the nihonto message board.
The compatible wood subject pops up on occasion. One of the things most folks overlook or don't realize is that Honoki (Magnonila Obivata, or Magnolia Hypoleuca) has a natural wax in it's structure. Using a bit of sandpaper on a piece of Honoki almost immediately clogs the paper. This makes the wood very ammenable for protecting the sword from humidity as well as a very good base for lacquerwork. The quality of the wood also depends on the particular region of Japan it was harvested because this dictates density and color as well. Some Honoki looks very white while others have a green cast to them. Many might be familiar with the very attractive golden brown "tiger stripes" that some Honoki can have which have a very opalescent shimmer to them when finished correctly by the sayashi. One will see these most generally on excellent shirasaya with qualitative blades. Obviously the lesser quality ones are used for lacquerwork (or the liners of steel/aluminum gunto saya) as the grain won't be visable anyway. As was mentioned above, Honoki is cured for many years to provide stability and remove excess moisture from the structure. The stability issue is obviously another important consideration for accurate fitting of the blade. If it warps the blade will rub or not fit at all. Kiln dried woods can be more suceptable to this, depending on how fresh from the kiln they are.
There are many considerations for using wood for direct contact with the sword blade of which many harder structured woods just aren't suitable. Woods like Maple, Walnut, Cherry and other very durable woods are difficult to carve and because of their dense structure are very rough on the finish of the sword, and they are often very irregular in grain. Oak is straighter, but is also very hard and has an open grain structure that traps crud. Any woods like this are likely to abrade the polish and also be very noisey on the draw. Carving them accurately is difficult so rattling is easy to introduce. Exotics woods can have natural chemistry that protects them from environmental threats such as pests that make them highly corrosive to steel, so yet another issue to watch out for. I have seen period examples of swords using exotic woods on saya for their beauty. One example was a Shikkake Norinaga tanto with a lovely wood (supposedly now extinct) from the area of Vietnam that looks like a cross between ironwood and rosewood. However it was an "irekozaya" which incorporates a removeable sleeve of Honoki to protect the blade from contact of the extremely hard wood. When pulled out it was hinged to easily split apart for cleaning, and a poem was written upon the outside of the sleeve. I've also seen the same thing done with saya of extremely high quality lacquerwork that allows the saya to be cleaned easily to preserve the lacquer work which would otherwise be destroyed or discarded when the saya interior became too dirty to use.
Honoki of any quality is getting harder to obtain and for a lot of swords including swords for practitioners, contemporary works, and lower quality antique swords using good stock is a bit of a waste of the materials. In these cases, Alder is about the best comparable stock we have here in the US for sword mountings I have found. It is closegrained, fairly dense, strong, and carvable. Eventhough it's all pretty much kiln dried, it's generally stable enough off the rack as well. Clear stock is getting harder to find though as with all decent woods. Basswood works, but it is very very soft and absorbs a ton of oil, so over oiling could exacerbate interior swelling/pinching of the sword blade. I'd vote against that one. It also is very soft, and will dent practically looking at it. Poplar (or American Tulipwood) is decent strenght, good for carving, and lower in shrikage than Alder or Basswood. It's color is also widely varied in whites, yellow, green, and brown, and has black spots, green areas, so for exposed wood it wouldn't look nice, but lacquered over no problem. It is light though and will dent easier than Alder, but not as easily as Bass.
In the US, Yellow Cucumber Tree (Magnolia Acuminata) might be one to look at, though I've never personally used it. It has properties better than Alder in most catagories and is fairly plentiful on the east coast. It is close to all specs between Alder, Poplar (Tulipwood), and although I don't have written specs on Honoki, likely is very similar there by default of species.
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Post by Silent on May 12, 2019 17:38:42 GMT
Poplar is good wood for a saya, but for a natural finish wood like a shirasaya a better wood is required.
I would try cherry!
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Post by bradc on Jun 3, 2019 4:45:38 GMT
My first project for a new blade I recently purchased is to make a shirasaya for it. Anyone know where I could buy honoki wood or a similar traditional shirasaya wood? One source (From Japan) www.namikawa-ltd.com/product-list/12
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Post by manville on Jun 3, 2019 5:40:30 GMT
Wow, that site is interesting. Thanks for the link. I settled for a piece of red oak project wood from Lowes to make the tsuka. Probably a good choice for my Longquan blade.
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