Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 9:01:30 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 18:15:44 GMT
I find myself still looking for parents of the hilts, and I suppose the muse to me is branched guards evolving during the 18th century. When we look at the 1790s, and the rounded "dove head" backstrap pommels and add a couple of guard branches, we see some of the ANX Napoleonic swords with the lozenge langet, invariably without an inner counter guard and the Bavarian 1798 perhaps one of the daddy's of them all.
So anyway, my muse now goes to not just the branches but the dove head swords overall, so common by the early 19th century.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jul 2, 2019 6:22:43 GMT
Sorry for the late reply. Have been cleaning two other sabres and the weather was not helping either. 34C under the flat roof without a breeze is no joke and surpresses any desire to have the slightest interest in, well, anything really. So, I want to thank you for your post, the pictures of the sabre from Ebay, which on all accounts an exact copie of mine, so probably a Horster too and the link to the Drive folder. Very nice swords these straight bladed P1796 siblings. Makes you think the forges and/or their clients were experimenting with the standard issue P1796 and M1811 models. There is a bit of the British P1821 in the mix too it looks like, so, for at the time these sabres may have been seen as ,, modern'' variations on the P1796 and M1811 theme. I tend to think in the direction of the US - Mexican War too at the moment. My scabbard is stamped with the F. Horster.(Junior) stamp, which places my sabre in the 1825 - 1875 time frame. Too late for the Dutch Militia connection of 1813, though sabres of the type may have been used there and the scabbard may be a later replacement. I have my doubts though. Since none of the examples have any Army stamps, I go for US militia or volunteer units connected to the US - Mexican War of 1846 - 1848 and it looks like, very probably, the sabres saw use again in the US Civil War on the Confederate side(?). As the Confederates were short on material they probably took hold of any old stock they could lay their hands on. By that time the Horster forge already had contracts with the North via their London agent, so this older Horster sabre may have seen service again on the Confederate side. The only way to know for sure is by looking at pictures and trying to find the one guy holding one of these sabres. Good luck with that. Me, I am happy to place the sabre in the US - Mexican frame. It looks and feels like it fits, though I would like to have some facts. I hope to finish it this week and publish it here. Thanks again for your insights.
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 2, 2019 7:02:57 GMT
Curious! Actually now I am reminded of something I read a few months back on Facebook about Mexican sabres of the period being very curved and from an American account "wholly unsuited for thrusting", if the Facebook post was to be believed.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jul 2, 2019 7:31:49 GMT
Please don't tell me you have the idea it was Mexican? That would stir the pot some! No, me I think Mexico at the time to be more looking at the old home country and placing orders at Toledo. If they had the money, which I highly doubt. That would mean regular Army involvement too and these sabres, none of them thus far, have any stamps. Not even import tax stamps. The only way I know of the involvement of Horster is the stamp on the scabbard of my example, which may be a later replacement. So the story of the guy in Edelweiss's Ebay link may be right and the sabre could have been made in the US. I doubt though that at the time a US based forge could make say hundred of these of this ( German ) quality. There is a reason for most sabres to be imported at the time. And look at the problems the US Northern forges had to make a good sabre for use in the ACW some 20 years after the US - Mexican War. No, I think this model was made by Horster and somehow found their way into US militia hands somewhere in the 1840's, without the boys from Customs ever laying hands on them. Some $$$ in the right place could do a lot. Still, I would say. If these and I see no reason to doubt that, are meant to be Cavalry sabres, volunteer Cavalry units are a very expensive enterprise. That means that the backers were rich and rich people had / have their ways to deal with some sorry assed Customs officials. Of course this whole story is speculation. Dutch Militia, Mexican war volunteers, ACW, nobody knows for sure. Thus far there are no actual facts, documents, engravings or photo's, account books, nothing. Nice story for Youtube with some aliens thrown in too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 4:26:43 GMT
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jul 7, 2019 6:52:23 GMT
,, Another couple ''....
Pictures did not come through.
,, Don't take their ad copy as gospel ''..
I don't. Only facts must do, old pictures etc. Thus far there's only hearsay, ad copy and Ebay blurb. Even the claim on SFI of a same sabre having a Dutch city of Utrecht stamp is not substantiated with a picture. The only fact there is, is the F.H. stamp on the scabbard drag, which opens a window of fifty years, 1825 - 1875. For the scabbard. Still the scabbard could be a later replacement. The sabre itself is really much closer to the P1796 LC Officers sabre I have than to a Blucher. The only German connection is the scabbard. The scabbard is a light version of a Blucher scabbard. The sabre, qua hilt type, would be better off with a P1796 LC Officers scabbard. Still, Solingen seems to be the place of origin. England had too many controling organisations to allow for unmarked goods. Klingenthal operated in isolation really. Solingen had more of a free for all attitude in my view. You pay, we play. The Solingen Rose export etch is missing though, so again there is no hard evidence the sabre was made there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 12:58:42 GMT
A great number of swords known to be made in England were sterile/unmarked until the Victorian era. This change really only changes when England demands other countries mark their goods. Not that I consider any we are discussing in this thread as British made. The links to Fa gan Arms aren't showing, as the forum nanny censors out a valuable resource Fa ga n F ag an Arms FNS8967 from the said dealer FNS8945 from said dealer F a g a n Arms .com
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jul 8, 2019 10:07:26 GMT
Thanks for these (censored)an Arms sabres. As far as I can see, these are both the same as mine, though the last one, the so called Mexican, has a pipe back blade which could be a replacement blade. The suggestions (censored)an Arms makes for the sabres are spurious at best. Most certainly not based on factual evidence, but solely made to present the sabres in a favourable light. I do not blame them. They're in the selling business and as long as they do not present their suggestions as fact no real harm is done. That said, the only reason there may be for calling these sabres ,,Blucher '' are the Blucher type scabbards on some of them. In fact they are closer to the P1796 LC Officers sabre qua blade / hilt thickness and blade length. The first generation Blucher, that is to say P1796's made in Selesia where the Prussian war production was moved to since the French had rolled up the rest of Germany, including Solingen, are indeed straight up P1796 LC copies without import stamps. The Blucher as we know it, with the heavy hilt, blade and scabbard was introduced shortly before the end of the war. Many claim only after the war. Deutsche Blankwaffen has it all sorted out though. The first generation Blucher still had the thin hilt parts and the lower seating grip wings, just like the British P1796 LC. The same can be seen on the mystery sabres. Thin hilt parts and low seated wings if there are any.In the final post about this sabre, at the end of this week, I will have the numbers of an Ebay piece, my sabre and my Officers P1796 LC combined. This week I have to write the story and make the pictures. The sabre is finally finished.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jul 8, 2019 19:04:26 GMT
Mystery sabre is waiting...
|
|
|
Post by ozoneocean on Feb 22, 2021 6:16:12 GMT
tinyurl.com/y49ajnpnI think my attention was drawn by the splendid Hussar uniform. So I sat there and then this gentleman pickes up a sabre and it is my sabre. I must have watched the video at least 10 times in a sort of stop motion. There was my sabre. Darn! It was pure chance I got to see this video. I could have picked any other from the side bar. So I commented and told Mr. Hussar what was going on and he told me the following: He did not know either what it was, but he had seen a few on the internet here and there over time. He knew of one other, he even had pictures of it and it had the knights head stamp on the ricasso, which can only mean Kirschbaum 1814 - 1862. This stamp fits into the timeline of this sabre. So here we are. One sabre with a Kirschbaum blade which confirms German manufacture of these sabres. Mine is, like Mr. Hussar's, unmarked. Nothing in that regard. The only stamp I could find on the scabbard drag of my example is the F H which is the typical stamp of Friedrich Horster jr. who was in business from 1825 up to 1875. We know him as one of the only two blade manufacturers for the Italian M1850 Bersaglieri sabre. WOW! Haha, I'm embarrassed, that's me in the video There are some small differences with my sabre and yours: The gip is full carved with many ridges, rather than smooth with cord. The blade is heavy and widens at the end. The scabbard is the British style with the flat drag rather than the triangular one on the Blucher. Apart from that there are many similarities. I saw that Mett Eastern got one a while ago in one of his unboxing videos.
|
|