German Made Mystery Sabre. New info.
May 6, 2019 16:14:57 GMT
Post by Uhlan on May 6, 2019 16:14:57 GMT
This one came in Friday. I have had ample time to study it because I bought it at Stewart Military Antiques in the US and so it took a while to get here.
It was Edelweiss who, in a thread somewhere on this page, alerted me to Stewarts. I think because of a very nice French M1821 gild and blue Infantry sabe (?), anyway, I went through the stock and almost immediately stumbled over this one, advertised as ,, German mid century mystery sabre ''.
Next day I had bought it. That is my safety precaution at work. If the next day the impact is still the same, I will at least consider buying it. Sometimes though the following day I think ,,MEH'' and move on.
So, with the sabre in the bag down to Oldswords it went. Worked through all of the database and nothing. The next day I went through Deutsche Blankwaffen and turned the place inside out but again nothing. By that time I was getting a bit pissed.
In the evening, still searching, I thought it a good idea to relax a bit and watched this video:
tinyurl.com/y49ajnpn
I think my attention was drawn by the splendid Hussar uniform.
So I sat there and then this gentleman pickes up a sabre and it is my sabre. I must have watched the video at least 10 times in a sort of stop motion. There was my sabre. Darn! It was pure chance I got to see this video. I could have picked any other from the side bar.
So I commented and told Mr. Hussar what was going on and he told me the following:
He did not know either what it was, but he had seen a few on the internet here and there over time. He knew of one other, he even had pictures of it and it had the knights head stamp on the ricasso, which can only mean Kirschbaum 1814 - 1862. This stamp fits into the timeline of this sabre.
So here we are. One sabre with a Kirschbaum blade which confirms German manufacture of these sabres. Mine is, like Mr. Hussar's, unmarked. Nothing in that regard. The only stamp I could find on the scabbard drag of my example is the F H which is the typical stamp of Friedrich Horster jr. who was in business from 1825 up to 1875. We know him as one of the only two blade manufacturers for the Italian M1850 Bersaglieri sabre.
What there is to learn from this sabre:
1. It has the British P1796 Light Cavalry blade for Officers. I have two of those and both have the same blade of just 7 mm thickness at the guard. The rest of the blade is very thin.
Only in profile it looks like a Troopers P1796, in reality it is much frailer.
2. The same can be said of the Blucher (!)(?) type scabbard. It looks like any other Troopers scabbard until you hold it. Then it is obvious that the steel sheet is very thin. You can observe this when looking at the dent in the picture. A typical dent for thinny sheet.
3. The hilt is typical for most troopers P1796's,though the rounded wings may point to some Officers models that have them this way too.
The only things different are the hoop shaped backstrap, which is still as wide and flat as the regular P1796 backstrap, the added side bars and the absence of langets. The guard itself is typical of many P1796 guards as it is compared with the Blucher of (too) light build.
4. The peen is the typical factory peen. An amateur going for a lark would have a very very hard time reproducing this quality. And as there seem to be more than three of these sabres around,
the amateur lark story can safely be dismissed.
So, what is it? German ,, Versuchs '' sabre? Why bother with a rather underweight P1796 clone when you have the Blucher? Some German made export model based on a British P1796 for Officers? But where then did they go?
It made me think about the Portuguese version of the British P1821. The Portuguse, instead of ordering the Troopers version, ordered the Officers model and designated that one as their Troopers sabre. But those had Portuguese armoury stamps on them and not only Solingen made them. Reeves had a piece of that export pie too. But this time Portugal does not have this mystery model on the books. So???
Cheers.
It was Edelweiss who, in a thread somewhere on this page, alerted me to Stewarts. I think because of a very nice French M1821 gild and blue Infantry sabe (?), anyway, I went through the stock and almost immediately stumbled over this one, advertised as ,, German mid century mystery sabre ''.
Next day I had bought it. That is my safety precaution at work. If the next day the impact is still the same, I will at least consider buying it. Sometimes though the following day I think ,,MEH'' and move on.
So, with the sabre in the bag down to Oldswords it went. Worked through all of the database and nothing. The next day I went through Deutsche Blankwaffen and turned the place inside out but again nothing. By that time I was getting a bit pissed.
In the evening, still searching, I thought it a good idea to relax a bit and watched this video:
tinyurl.com/y49ajnpn
I think my attention was drawn by the splendid Hussar uniform.
So I sat there and then this gentleman pickes up a sabre and it is my sabre. I must have watched the video at least 10 times in a sort of stop motion. There was my sabre. Darn! It was pure chance I got to see this video. I could have picked any other from the side bar.
So I commented and told Mr. Hussar what was going on and he told me the following:
He did not know either what it was, but he had seen a few on the internet here and there over time. He knew of one other, he even had pictures of it and it had the knights head stamp on the ricasso, which can only mean Kirschbaum 1814 - 1862. This stamp fits into the timeline of this sabre.
So here we are. One sabre with a Kirschbaum blade which confirms German manufacture of these sabres. Mine is, like Mr. Hussar's, unmarked. Nothing in that regard. The only stamp I could find on the scabbard drag of my example is the F H which is the typical stamp of Friedrich Horster jr. who was in business from 1825 up to 1875. We know him as one of the only two blade manufacturers for the Italian M1850 Bersaglieri sabre.
What there is to learn from this sabre:
1. It has the British P1796 Light Cavalry blade for Officers. I have two of those and both have the same blade of just 7 mm thickness at the guard. The rest of the blade is very thin.
Only in profile it looks like a Troopers P1796, in reality it is much frailer.
2. The same can be said of the Blucher (!)(?) type scabbard. It looks like any other Troopers scabbard until you hold it. Then it is obvious that the steel sheet is very thin. You can observe this when looking at the dent in the picture. A typical dent for thinny sheet.
3. The hilt is typical for most troopers P1796's,though the rounded wings may point to some Officers models that have them this way too.
The only things different are the hoop shaped backstrap, which is still as wide and flat as the regular P1796 backstrap, the added side bars and the absence of langets. The guard itself is typical of many P1796 guards as it is compared with the Blucher of (too) light build.
4. The peen is the typical factory peen. An amateur going for a lark would have a very very hard time reproducing this quality. And as there seem to be more than three of these sabres around,
the amateur lark story can safely be dismissed.
So, what is it? German ,, Versuchs '' sabre? Why bother with a rather underweight P1796 clone when you have the Blucher? Some German made export model based on a British P1796 for Officers? But where then did they go?
It made me think about the Portuguese version of the British P1821. The Portuguse, instead of ordering the Troopers version, ordered the Officers model and designated that one as their Troopers sabre. But those had Portuguese armoury stamps on them and not only Solingen made them. Reeves had a piece of that export pie too. But this time Portugal does not have this mystery model on the books. So???
Cheers.