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Post by pvsampson on Apr 26, 2019 7:37:20 GMT
I hope that some members here will be able to help,as I am planning to attempt making some weapons hopefully by the start of August.The main reason it will be then is financial as I live on low income,am raising two daughters by myself and with the usual monetary commitments as well as schooling costs and others,planning ahead for expenditure is crucial .I joined this forum specifically to learn about sword types,their uses and their manufacture processes as for some time I have been considering this venture. I have extensive metal working,timber,spray painting and fibreglass experience,yet with metal hardening and tempering I have none. I have enough tools to shape,grind and polish steel stock and plan to build a 1200mm x 100mm x (?) 80mm,tube or square gas forge lined with kaowool or similar coated with refractory. I live in a rural area in North NSW and even though am only 20 mins drive to town,freight companies do not deliver here so any product I need means a trip to town at least to pick up,or even a 50km drive to the closest "city".(This is relevant to some questions I will be asking.) My plan is to start making some basic swords,with fuller,distal taper,steel cross guards and pommels and timber handle with leather. I will be working toward a point in future where finishing them so that any blade grooves,pits,shallow points and sanding marks will be unacceptable,same with fittings.I know that this will be a process of learning,mistakes,blood,sweat,tears and maybe even the odd burn,but like I said I have experience in working with the materials and have a reasonably good knowledge of how to prevent and avoid the bad stuff. I have a heap of questions,but will start with a few at this point and add more as this thread progresses. What are some of the main issues experienced with heat treating,apart from those I mention below? I know different steels react differently but in general terms. How common is warping when quenching,and how does one prevent? Easier to reheat and try and correct warp or temper and correct? How common is cracking and how thick would one leave the edges to prevent? Is normalising essential,or a recommendation? With a forge dimensions 1200mm x 100mm x 80mm internal after lining,would two of these burners be sufficient,three or four? I am thinking two may not. www.artisansupplies.com.au/product/dual-gas-forge-burner-bkit7/I have tried to find a volume converter but to no avail. So many advice posts on tempering...Is 400 F for two one hour cycles sufficient? Better to heat the blade in tempering oven as it is heating,or wait until hot and place blade in? I will leave it at those for the moment.I have spent literally months researching,but there are always some things I want to clarify,and who else better to ask than the members here who are the experts.As I said heat treating is something I have no experience with and the above questions are just things I am having some thoughts about. Any and all help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Pete.
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christain
Member
It's the steel on the inside that counts.
Posts: 2,835
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Post by christain on Apr 26, 2019 18:34:14 GMT
Agreed...the heat-treat process is the main thing to get right. That's--literally--the 'make or break' point of the whole thing. I've only forged a couple of small blades, so I can't offer much advice...but you are definitely asking the right crowd. Good luck!
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Apr 26, 2019 20:02:32 GMT
I recommend looking at some videos on YouTube as well. It's good to see it being done
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Post by pvsampson on Apr 26, 2019 23:48:50 GMT
Agreed...the heat-treat process is the main thing to get right. That's--literally--the 'make or break' point of the whole thing. I've only forged a couple of small blades, so I can't offer much advice...but you are definitely asking the right crowd. Good luck! Thanks.I have been doing a lot of research but as I have no experience with HT,no amount of vids or reading can really beat experience. I understand what needs to be done,but some things need reinforcing in my mind hence the questions.
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Post by pvsampson on Apr 26, 2019 23:49:39 GMT
I recommend looking at some videos on YouTube as well. It's good to see it being done Have been watching heaps,just need some clarification on things.
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,674
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Post by Scott on Apr 27, 2019 1:55:12 GMT
I can only really help with some of your questions so here goes.
Normalizing is probably essential. It anneals the steel and should remove any internal stress that may have been caused during the making of the blade reducing the chance of cracks and warping.
Any questions about number of burners/forge construction get in touch with artisan supplies. They know what they're talking about. They will be at ironfest in Lithgow this weekend but that's probably a bit far for you to travel.
Tempering will depend on the steel you're using. Go with what is suggested for the particular steel. Not terribly helpful I know.
Hope this helps, looking forward to seeing you make some swords.
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Post by pvsampson on Apr 27, 2019 2:19:17 GMT
I can only really help with some of your questions so here goes. Normalizing is probably essential. It anneals the steel and should remove any internal stress that may have been caused during the making of the blade reducing the chance of cracks and warping. Any questions about number of burners/forge construction get in touch with artisan supplies. They know what they're talking about. They will be at ironfest in Lithgow this weekend but that's probably a bit far for you to travel. Tempering will depend on the steel you're using. Go with what is suggested for the particular steel. Not terribly helpful I know. Hope this helps, looking forward to seeing you make some swords. Thanks mate.Every little bit of info is helpful. One thing is steel I can get from Grafton and all the guy could tell me is that it is spring steel.They are actually a family of blacksmiths,but he didn't really want to know about what I was doing and any questions I had,just that he could sell me 1 metre of 60mm x 5mm for $15 a metre.90 min drive to there as well.Other option for me is a vehicle spring specialist in Lismore,but he can only get me packs,already bent and said he can straighten but will have holes pre drilled. Another place in Lismore tracked some 1095 for me but....$200 a metre!! Can buy carbon steels online ,reasonably expensive with freight though but I may have no choice and at least I know what I am actually getting. So,get 5 x 1200mm lengths of unknown spring at $75,or get a metre of known stuff for around the same price with freight (or more). I would much prefer to stuff up a $15 piece than expensive steel,whilst figuring things out. And,I will give those guys a ring soon for sure.
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Post by Silent on Apr 28, 2019 22:10:58 GMT
get one of those 15 usd bar and do a couple to small knivesv to figure the Heat treat process. You dont need any XPTO steel to make a good sword, AISI 1060/1075 makes great blades and its easier to forge.
Tough my honest opinion ABOUT this endevour is If you dont already own a forge,Anvil and all the rest of the hardcore equipment for forging Its probably cheaper to buy a couple decent production swords.
Or you can outsource the HeaTreat to a company, nowadays there are special forges software temperature controlled that produce near perfection heat treated springsm like for cars and etc.
Cya
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Post by pvsampson on Apr 29, 2019 0:24:25 GMT
get one of those 15 usd bar and do a couple to small knivesv to figure the Heat treat process. You dont need any XPTO steel to make a good sword, AISI 1060/1075 makes great blades and its easier to forge. Tough my honest opinion ABOUT this endevour is If you dont already own a forge,Anvil and all the rest of the hardcore equipment for forging Its probably cheaper to buy a couple decent production swords. Or you can outsource the HeaTreat to a company, nowadays there are special forges software temperature controlled that produce near perfection heat treated springsm like for cars and etc. Cya Thanks for the advice,as I said all is welcome and considered. Here in Australia,decent production swords are reasonably costly.Any Hanwei/Tinker sharp will be around $500,Windlass around $400 plus sharpening. One Tinker and I can have a gas forge set up for around the same cost.Outsourcing heat treat is not feasible financially where I live. I will be making some knives,seax and short swords to sort my heat treatment process and fittings and finishing. I have an anvil,sander,grinders,drill press and other equipment. A forge and steel are all I need to get moving. And knowledge and practise.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,619
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Apr 29, 2019 0:42:34 GMT
get one of those 15 usd bar and do a couple to small knivesv to figure the Heat treat process. You dont need any XPTO steel to make a good sword, AISI 1060/1075 makes great blades and its easier to forge. Tough my honest opinion ABOUT this endevour is If you dont already own a forge,Anvil and all the rest of the hardcore equipment for forging Its probably cheaper to buy a couple decent production swords. Or you can outsource the HeaTreat to a company, nowadays there are special forges software temperature controlled that produce near perfection heat treated springsm like for cars and etc. Cya Thanks for the advice,as I said all is welcome and considered. Here in Australia,decent production swords are reasonably costly.Any Hanwei/Tinker sharp will be around $500,Windlass around $400 plus sharpening. One Tinker and I can have a gas forge set up for around the same cost.Outsourcing heat treat is not feasible financially where I live. I will be making some knives,seax and short swords to sort my heat treatment process and fittings and finishing. I have an anvil,sander,grinders,drill press and other equipment. A forge and steel are all I need to get moving. And knowledge and practise. That's wild. I would have reckoned that your proximity to India and China would make their products significantly cheaper. Ehh...go figure.
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Post by pvsampson on Apr 29, 2019 1:09:26 GMT
Thanks for the advice,as I said all is welcome and considered. Here in Australia,decent production swords are reasonably costly.Any Hanwei/Tinker sharp will be around $500,Windlass around $400 plus sharpening. One Tinker and I can have a gas forge set up for around the same cost.Outsourcing heat treat is not feasible financially where I live. I will be making some knives,seax and short swords to sort my heat treatment process and fittings and finishing. I have an anvil,sander,grinders,drill press and other equipment. A forge and steel are all I need to get moving. And knowledge and practise. That's wild. I would have reckoned that your proximity to India and China would make their products significantly cheaper. Ehh...go figure. Yeah they are not cheap.An Albion Squire Viking cost alone is around $670 at current exchange rate,then add shipping and tax puts it up around $900.
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Post by wulvz on Jun 5, 2019 11:00:38 GMT
Ok so issues with heat treatment, depends on the steel, the batch of steel. There is an acceptable range for the metal that the alloys and properties can fall under for its classification, and if it is a barcut from a sheet the alloy content is in tiny clusters throught the steel. A tiny cut and sample will be different from the next cut, so the variance has to allow for the steel to still remain in spec. In its round bar form it might be fairly evenly distributed, but once its stretched thin and then sheered youd be looking a puzzle peice and notice its nothing like the next puzzle part.
The part you pick up according a batvh report will never have the alloy content avertised no matter who made it, 1095 for example could have .92% carbon or .97% for example and the Si and Manganese content could be maybe .1 higher or lower.
It is VERY important to know this because it will make a make a difference in HT because if you follow a guide, your steel.is slightly different then their steel even from the same source.
The next part is the question is the steel a through hardening steel or is it a shallow hardening steel (in oil alone?)
Steel is a suspended solution, like water with sugar dissolved in it, only when heated the carbon content can move around inside the steel, the extra non carbon alloy content blocks and attracts the carbon during its migration. This is really over simplified but its the basic principle.
Your grains are made of carbon, its like have 12 people and grouping them into groups of 4, you would have 3 grains.
If you broke them into groups of 2, you would have 6 grains.
So when you heat the steel to an austenizing temperature which is usually half of of the materials melting temp or higher the grains can group together and you have grain growth and the carbon as well as the grain and anything in the boundry can consolidate.
This process is dependant on time and heat for how fast it occurs.
Concider now that your steel is not homogeneous, anyone who says it is or makes an arguement that modern steel is homogeneous in its alloys is lieing or repeating a lie.
You need to austenize your steel to a point where the carbon content unevenly attached to the alloy clusters becomes uniform throughout the steel, and have uniform grain size in the material. Those pockets of the alloy content tend to make the grains bigger or smaller then the rest of steel.
An even heat will not mean a clean quench but it is a nessisary for the process.
This matters extremely if you have a material that is water quenched because the core of the steel will be effected, or if you have a deep hardening alloy in oil that will throughly harden.
Mechanics for case hardening in oil are different because the (indevidual) is after certain properties only on the case and tends to ignore the inside as it doesnt get effected as much.
But in simplicity if you have an uneven heat it will cause an uneven grain structure, and it has to be held at a certain temp long enough to get the effect of even grain content. If a cluster retained extra carbon it will harden differently and whala: defect.
Tempering simply allows for a tiny bit of the carbon in the grain boundries to escape as well as expanding the compressed boundry so the steel can flex since it is in a state of hyper tension.
This is a gross simplification and im sure there will be complaints as to the choice of wording ect but it is the principles.
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