reptaronice1
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Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 15, 2019 7:24:14 GMT
Clay tempered can help the edge hardness but could also make it more brittle so I could see why it is a double edged sword. No pun intended Brittleness. Hanwei included. Make a sword hard. Sounds great. Makes a sword fragile. Not so great. Swing a "clay tempered sword" into steel or a polearm...the way Hanwei makes them. Result? Chipping. Not a battlefield ready weapon eh? Temper them a few Rockwells more softly I say. Ya, thats why I bought the 9260 because I want something I can use. anything clay tempered is to fragile.
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reptaronice1
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Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 15, 2019 7:25:20 GMT
U dont like l6? why is that? It's ugly. Show me a L6 blade that's pretty I kinda like this one. But I see what u mean, it has kinda a dull grey color to it.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 15, 2019 7:28:43 GMT
Chemistry is not synonymous with metallurgy. Parsimony is fair yet inequitable.
It's part nationalistic pride.
It's another part "WE HAVE THE RECIPE"
Much Like Kentucky Bourbon vs. Scotch Whiskey
Cultural refinement to the method, beyond the madness of the scrutinizing lens of production pieces.
I'll drink to that Ahh who needs nationalism. Were all the same at the end of the day XD. But hey I get it. Kinda like how we make hamburgers in the USA even tho they could be made in Japan.... Nvm bad anaology XD Nationalism's great. Reminds us who we are.
Uggh, hamburgers.
How about Fish and Chips?
In between rounds of Scottish Ale and Jameson?
A United Kingdom, no? Lol
More seriously, let us respect Japanese metallurgy for what it is...fascinating. Methodologically speaking, the Japanese worked with some of the worst base material and transmuted it into arguably the most iconic swords of all time. Achievements acquired under circumstance were fascinating, testament to brilliance.
So let us respect tamahagane then, as history dictates we should. If, at for the very least, as homage to the brilliance of a deceased age.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 15, 2019 7:33:14 GMT
Brittleness. Hanwei included. Make a sword hard. Sounds great. Makes a sword fragile. Not so great. Swing a "clay tempered sword" into steel or a polearm...the way Hanwei makes them. Result? Chipping. Not a battlefield ready weapon eh? Temper them a few Rockwells more softly I say. Ya, thats why I bought the 9260 because I want something I can use. anything clay tempered is to fragile. NOPE! I've hit "clay tempered" (marketing term, a hype term, sadly used to mislead many) against metal, rock, wood, flesh and bone and seen nary a scuffle before.
Entirely how the blade's done.
9260 by Huawei is a no brainer. The T10 by Huawei holds up spectacularly. Much better than Hanwei's K120c fancy folded stuff. All about the steel and how you work with it.
I strongly prefer DH blades since they take a better edge. Although 9260 and 5160 are all sorts of groovy
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reptaronice1
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Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 15, 2019 14:36:00 GMT
Ya, thats why I bought the 9260 because I want something I can use. anything clay tempered is to fragile. NOPE! I've hit "clay tempered" (marketing term, a hype term, sadly used to mislead many) against metal, rock, wood, flesh and bone and seen nary a scuffle before.
Entirely how the blade's done.
9260 by Huawei is a no brainer. The T10 by Huawei holds up spectacularly. Much better than Hanwei's K120c fancy folded stuff. All about the steel and how you work with it.
I strongly prefer DH blades since they take a better edge. Although 9260 and 5160 are all sorts of groovy
So you like the 9260 and t10 from huawei? Ya im saying in a poorly done case they r fragile.
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reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 15, 2019 14:36:26 GMT
Ahh who needs nationalism. Were all the same at the end of the day XD. But hey I get it. Kinda like how we make hamburgers in the USA even tho they could be made in Japan.... Nvm bad anaology XD Nationalism's great. Reminds us who we are.
Uggh, hamburgers.
How about Fish and Chips?
In between rounds of Scottish Ale and Jameson?
A United Kingdom, no? Lol
More seriously, let us respect Japanese metallurgy for what it is...fascinating. Methodologically speaking, the Japanese worked with some of the worst base material and transmuted it into arguably the most iconic swords of all time. Achievements acquired under circumstance were fascinating, testament to brilliance.
So let us respect tamahagane then, as history dictates we should. If, at for the very least, as homage to the brilliance of a deceased age.
Funny thing actually im from pittsburgh and for a long time we had the best steel in the world XD
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Post by bradc on May 15, 2019 14:54:53 GMT
The model I went with currently starts at 1600. It's easy to go up several hundred from there with aesthetic upgrades, so yeah a couple really pretty pennies... My willpower almost faded at their folded carbon blade (3k starting) the pictures were very promising (choji hamon with lots of ashi).... Blech. While good for the price I've seen quoted (circa 2k), for 3k+ there's a lot of other options. Especially considering how boring L6 is to look at (but that's me with my liking for mokume, masame, itame, any type of whirls and swirls really haha)
Happy to hear they start at 1600 though. Means I'll be getting a taste of what's so excellent all the sooner, which I'm rather eager to try for myself. Hearing all the positive buzz has me more than intrigued, has me excited. More so than I've been in a long time when it comes to swords. Motohara is such a suddenly awesome brand, I can't wait to try them myself. Seem like a practitioner's dream based on how they've been hyped
Yeah at 3k+ your starting to get mighty close to a reasonable quality antique or even basic nihonto from an Iai focused dealer like Giheiya. Hence willpower won out and I went practical. Although it was a darn pretty looking blade from pics. PS they didnt call it Tamahagane, (I'm sure more details are availible if you ask) I am curious to see what their L6 looks like in person the Hanwei Praying Mantis has a really unusual Hamon (it's a black line). This L6 motohara looked nice enough for the blade sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/56526/review-evolution-blades-motohara-katanaMotohara also has some other steel options (SKS3, SGT), mostly starting at the same price point. They are all forged (not folded) modern steels so wont have hada etc.. But folding modern steel serves no functional purpose. The thing that sold me on Motohara is that they let you specify all the features important to me (tsuka length, nagasa, kissaki length,bo hi). (Hence the almost failing willpower to the 3k blade with all the asthetics of folded carbon)
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Post by maewyn on May 15, 2019 16:35:39 GMT
They are all a pretty penny tho? No? The model I went with currently starts at 1600. It's easy to go up several hundred from there with aesthetic upgrades, so yeah a couple really pretty pennies... My willpower almost faded at their folded carbon blade (3k starting) the pictures were very promising (choji hamon with lots of ashi).... They dont have a folded blade.That is D2
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Post by bradc on May 15, 2019 16:41:40 GMT
The model I went with currently starts at 1600. It's easy to go up several hundred from there with aesthetic upgrades, so yeah a couple really pretty pennies... My willpower almost faded at their folded carbon blade (3k starting) the pictures were very promising (choji hamon with lots of ashi).... They dont have a folded blade.That is D2 Oops I must have misunderstood what higher end choji hamon carbon blade actually was...
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Post by maewyn on May 15, 2019 16:45:34 GMT
My bro John tested their L6 hard target cutter for them,toughest production blade he has ever used.Jason asked him to try to bend it during tameshigiri,he tried.No damage at all. He ended up buying an sks3 LMC with full upgrades,about $2200. The D2 is about 3grand,and yes you can start with used Nihonto at that price,but they will not perform like the Motohara swords do.And you'll have the Nihonto nazi's crying how you shouldn't be using it. The word forged is also highly overused in the production sword community.Almost none of the swords we buy are forged,if any.Stock removal from blanks.
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Post by maewyn on May 15, 2019 16:48:16 GMT
They dont have a folded blade.That is D2 Oops I must have misunderstood what higher end choji hamon carbon blade actually was... Yeah,the only blade they have at 3 grand is D2,unless Jason has very recently added something new.The D2 is very distinct looking,blade seems to have hada,very nice lookong,and VERY hard.Will hardly even take scratches from real Japanese tatami.
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Post by bradc on May 15, 2019 16:52:55 GMT
My bro John tested their L6 hard target cutter for them,toughest production blade he has ever used.Jason asked him to try to bend it during tameshigiri,he tried.No damage at all. He ended up buying an sks3 LMC with full upgrades,about $2200. The D2 is about 3grand,and yes you can start with used Nihonto at that price,but they will not perform like the Motohara swords do.And you'll have the Nihonto nazi's crying how you shouldn't be using it. The word forged is also highly overused in the production sword community.Almost none of the swords we buy are forged,if any.Stock removal from blanks. I guess I should clarify that at that price for my use (kata not cutting) a nihonto would be high on my list. If you want to cut things I dont see how a well treated modern steel wouldnt win every time.. After all despite all the magic associated with tamahagane and folding its really just an amazingly clever method to make something out of a very poor starting material. (edit just realized zabazagobo said something similar a few posts ago... I missed a page). That being said one day I hope to own a nice antique.. Also from what I have seen hitting a blank a couple times with an air hammer counts as forging to some manufacturers.... (from this SBG video around the 4 minute mark) So yeah I would never trust a manufacturer based only on key words...
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Post by bradc on May 15, 2019 16:54:50 GMT
Oops I must have misunderstood what higher end choji hamon carbon blade actually was... Yeah,the only blade they have at 3 grand is D2,unless Jason has very recently added something new.The D2 is very distinct looking,blade seems to have hada,very nice lookong,and VERY hard.Will hardly even take scratches from real Japanese tatami. Ok thanks for the clarification. It looked really nice in pictures. Maybe for my next sword I still managed to work my way up to 2050 for this L6 one... Edit - Just checked message history the 3k blade I saw pics of is SK3 carbon steel. So maybe a new product since you last spoke with Jason?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 21:45:03 GMT
For the novice readers, the national tatara and resultant kera aren't creating an magic blades but the methodology and skill at every step of the way are worth understanding. www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/backbone/rb_6_2.htmlSome of the great documentaries over the decades show the processes and just the breaking up of and sorting the kera does lend to some pretty sound swords. The site link may seem boring, compared to videos but there is a lot to comprehend there.
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Post by bradc on May 16, 2019 0:09:24 GMT
For the novice readers, the national tatara and resultant kera aren't creating an magic blades but the methodology and skill at every step of the way are worth understanding. www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/backbone/rb_6_2.htmlSome of the great documentaries over the decades show the processes and just the breaking up of and sorting the kera does lend to some pretty sound swords. The site link may seem boring, compared to videos but there is a lot to comprehend there. Thanks for that link, lots of info that is glossed over/missing in other sources I have read. I for one find this stuff fascinating.
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Post by pvsampson on May 22, 2019 9:27:46 GMT
Also from what I have seen hitting a blank a couple times with an air hammer counts as forging to some manufacturers.... forge /fɔːdʒ/ verb gerund or present participle: forging 1. make or shape (a metal object) by heating it in a fire or furnace and hammering it. Doesn't matter how it is hammered,it is still forged.Trip hammers were used in China 2,000 years ago and maybe more.
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Post by bradc on May 23, 2019 4:30:08 GMT
Also from what I have seen hitting a blank a couple times with an air hammer counts as forging to some manufacturers.... forge /fɔːdʒ/ verb gerund or present participle: forging 1. make or shape (a metal object) by heating it in a fire or furnace and hammering it. Doesn't matter how it is hammered,it is still forged.Trip hammers were used in China 2,000 years ago and maybe more. What I found interesting was not so much the use of an air hammer but that the hammering was limited (perhaps this is just the part shown) to essentially just the monouchi. So if only a portion of a blade is forged do you still market it as forged? (edit - that was obviously one of the cheaper swords in the video and I have no idea how it's actually marketed) Now that I think about it, is there any benefit to forging (vs stock removal) the whole length of a modern steel blade 🤔. Particularly in a design like a katana where most of the function is limited to the monouchi and koshi...
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Post by michael1969 on Jun 2, 2019 3:06:03 GMT
As a former knife maker I can answer that one. Most definately yes, steel benefits from being forged over stock removal when it comes to blades. Forging actually aligns the grain structure of the steel, compacts the grain so to speak. The result is a much more durable, tougher steel. The amou of forging shown in the video on the 1045 carbon blanks isnt much, but yes that steel is going to benefit from what little forging it recieved. Not as much obviously as a blade forged totally by hand or power hammer.
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Post by pvsampson on Jun 2, 2019 5:10:54 GMT
As a former knife maker I can answer that one. Most definately yes, steel benefits from being forged over stock removal when it comes to blades. Forging actually aligns the grain structure of the steel, compacts the grain so to speak. The result is a much more durable, tougher steel. The amou of forging shown in the video on the 1045 carbon blanks isnt much, but yes that steel is going to benefit from what little forging it recieved. Not as much obviously as a blade forged totally by hand or power hammer. So hammering the steel makes it tougher? As far as I have learned hammering is used to shape and originally removed the impurities,and with modern steels there is no need to hammer at all.Plenty of knife and swordmakers use stock removal only,and then the heat treatment dictates how tough the steel is for example normalizing before heat and quench.Heating the steel above critical temperature changes the crystalline structure and then the cooling process dictates the grain size,as in annealing and normalizing. Normalizing creates uniformity in the grain structure to provide stress relief. If a stock removal 9260 blade has a 52 Rockwell hardness and uniform grain structure,and a hammered 9260 blade of same dimensions has the same hardness and structure,then which one is tougher?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 2, 2019 5:23:27 GMT
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