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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 8, 2019 14:42:36 GMT
I think your presumptions on my presumptions are more presumptuous than the original critiqued presumptions
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 15:11:48 GMT
Splitting hairs or not No, indeed he has not. Schola Gladitoria has been anything but a professional life studying, trading, and teaching about Victorian swords. It may appear so in knowing him from youtube. I'll leave it at that except to say Matt's interest in Victorian swords is fairly recent, in the grand scheme of things. Matt is a historian, adept scholar and jack of all trades in that order of things. If Matt is to be acknowledged as having spent his most time regarding would be Fiore and currently ignoring reported posts at his forum base. www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/index.php?Don't get me wrong at all but 2+2=74, if you went to either myself or Matt to id the sword I'm still in erstwhile pursuit of an id for your sword but take a step back and check out the real experts. SFI has been suggested a few times now, I am bowled over not to see you post there but maybe Mark is on vacation and you can't post yet. The Victorian Wars board, where the more knowledgeable used to hang out and Richard is at that pinnacle. To post of it on myArmoury is akin to pinning a note to a tumbleweed Also don't get me wrong when I say I have known Matt going back to the precursor of the SFI board. www.swordforum.com/vb4/member.php?226-Matt-EastonI'll add in passing that Matt and I are "friends" on FB, not that there is anything wrong with that. To end my thoughts again on this I'm still in erstwhile pursuit of an id for your sword but take a step back and check out the real experts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 15:15:28 GMT
I think your presumptions on my presumptions are more presumptuous than the original critiqued presumptions I believe my intent has been that of a perturbed peturbateur. It is only logical.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 15:52:05 GMT
www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?116272-British-Light-Cavalry-Sabre-Woolley-amp-Sargant-1821-I-D-Needed! www.michaeldlong.com/product/1821-cavalry-troopers-sword-by-woolley/birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/sword-cutlers.11995/(I know that thread!) I look forward to your receipt of the sword and a most exacting description of all markings with macro images of them, if possible. Gee, what a little creative searching one might turn up ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=15365,DATABASE=objects Let me try to link again on wonky SBG Click Me Here!!!![/url] I suppose I could actually open my book but picking nits on the interent so much more fun, Title: SABER - U.S. SABER MODEL 1833 DRAGOON Maker/Manufacturer: SARGANT, H. & WILLIAM LUCAS Date of Manufacture: Eminent Figure: Catalog Number: SPAR 6720 Measurements: OL: 96.5CM 38" BL: 82.5CM 32 1/2" Object Description: U.S. SABER MODEL 1833 DRAGOON Manufactured by William Lucas & H. Sargant, Birmingham, England - Sharkskin wire-wound grip. Complete with 31 3/4" leather scabbard with brass mouthpiece. Markings: Edge: BEST/CAST STEEL. W.L. & H./SARGANT. Notes: "Sargent, W.L. & M. - Location unknown. Produced dragoon sabers for the Government during the period 1833-1840." "THE FIRM - Birmingham, England was a major cutlery center in England. One of the first successful Birmingham sword cutlers was Robert Mole, a sword and bayonet maker. Not as well know was the Sargant Company. The Sargant family was active in Birmingham as early as 1815 as the firm of Wooley & Sargant, located on Edmund St., and by 1852 the firm, now called William Lucas Sargant, was still listed at 74 Edmond St. It remained there until 1865. In 1868, the address was listed as 35 Whittall St. where they remianed until 1879, after which they were no longer listed in the directory. Blade mark, on the back near the ricasso: WL. & H.SARGANT" - Thillmann References: Furr, Clegg Donald. AMERICAN SWORDS & MAKERS' MARKS. The Paragon Agency. Orange, Ca. 1999. Furr's book. Hrmmm, there were some copies at original cost but I guess got scoooped up. I'll try to photo the book reference. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Soooo, Happy Day! A solid reference and example. I think I may need more coffee. That will be 20 credits please and 2+2 may indeed =12 addendum, a dead end again mebbe, as that is a foot officer gothic hilt the Springfield image but that doesn't jive with the text ww2.rediscov.com/spring/full/6720A2-JPG633536161575073834.jpgThe WL & H Sargant, as brothers no doubt? Or dad and the next generation. P.S. I am finding no reference of Sargant in the Furr book but only a vague reference of other's making dragoon officer swords (which might be the excuse for the museum image and notes). I do not own the Thillmann books but he is well regarded (with an error or few he has published as well). Thillmann's dating of the name points kinda in a direction I suggested in pm. Are we any closer an hour into the books here? Not on my end.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 8, 2019 16:11:18 GMT
Yeah the scabbard is also leather, mine is steel....plus there's the sharksking grip while mine is leather....plus the copper wiring while mine has none.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 17:13:50 GMT
See my last edit. ?8^)~
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 9, 2019 17:51:59 GMT
That's one good looking sabre.
Wouldn't fixate too much on the ,, brown '' grip though. I do not think it to be crucial at this stage. The brass clearly is. Held a magnet to it? Sure it was not plated at one time?
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 9, 2019 18:03:12 GMT
That's one good looking sabre. Wouldn't fixate too much on the ,, brown '' grip though. I do not think it to be crucial at this stage. The brass clearly is. Held a magnet to it? Sure it was not plated at one time? Good question. I get itin the mail tomorrow, I'll let you know then, hopefully get some more info and markings too.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 9, 2019 18:08:15 GMT
That's one good looking sabre. Wouldn't fixate too much on the ,, brown '' grip though. I do not think it to be crucial at this stage. The brass clearly is. Held a magnet to it? Sure it was not plated at one time? I'm gonna clean it too. I'd like to say I'll give it the Uhlan treatment, but lets be real, I'll be happy to pull off 10% of the the Uhlan treatment.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 12, 2019 1:07:04 GMT
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 12, 2019 1:29:09 GMT
UhlanDave Kelly@edelweiss Do a couple B markings on the spine add any clarity?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 2:22:26 GMT
Two b or not two b............
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 5:58:18 GMT
I'm being facetious of course. Are the two other marks at approximate cog and pop on the sword? Such marks do appear on a number of British blades during the Victorian period. I would again suggest SFI and the Victorian Wars board. Those two marks sometimes a generality for the mounter. The WL and H would seem to be the 1850s-1860s.
Cast steel was refined blister/shear steel and widely introduced in England during the late 18th century but not used for all blades. Produced in banks of crucibles, the result was homogenized and refined ingots then mostly rolled out. Peterson's American Sword discusses some of this in the preface to the old testament for American swords. A book as old as myself. Image searches will show British cast steel history, with pictures. An iron floor that is like the top of a wood/coal burning cook stove with rows of crucibles set in the floor holes. The crucibles are long and of a moderate id of about eight to ten inches.
I have a Woolley&Deakin bladed eagle pommel sabre and Woolley&Sargant were associated during the first quarter. My blade marked in the 1803-1806 range under Woolley&Deakin. My sword a blade mounted by someone other than the producer of the blade. That may well be the case in your sword as well. A blade mounted by someone other than the producer of the blade itself. My blade is cast steel but not marked so.
The dates as shown in an earlier post in my replies show your timeline.
Cast steel, as a term, was then mostly replaced after the Bessemer process was replacing smaller production runs of steel. Blades marked cast steel, a quality term, still in use through to the 20th century. Modern steel indeed still huge crucibles with sheet formed in rollers.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 13, 2019 4:32:55 GMT
That sabre looks good. Just a few small spots with pitting in the tip section it looks like on the picture. Not totally washed out lines either. Nah, not bad at all. That scabbard could use some work though. The dents I mean. Funny, because yesterday evening I decided to take on a very dented British Pre regulation drummer sabre. Little thing, so easy to handle and what's more important, made from brass. That means thin walls. Going to make a ,, mold '' how do you call it? from strips of 1.5 mm liner triplex and see what happens. I do not know much about British sabres and swords though, so for a lot of answers you should ask Dave or Edelweiss or follow Edelweiss suggestions and look at other forums. Victorian Swords on here might be a good source too. Tom Nardi does the denting thing but it will cost you. If though the scabbard walls for some reason are thin, like I had on my Portuguese Reeves you could try yourself. Most of the work sits in making the insert. (what is the term, mandrel?) As for taking out some if not all of that pitting, I should say give it a try. It is not rocket science. I will gladly assist you on a stand by basis. No problem. If you were to take out some or most of the pitting it doesn't follow that the entire blade has to be done to. Work on the tip can just be blended in and you'll have a nice and shiny blade without changing its character at all. It will look just as ,,antique '' as it did before, only better maintained. As to the hilt: I do not see brass in the pictures. What I think I see is German silver. As far as I know these hilts left the factory highly polished. I see no evidence of that either. Did the magnet thing yet? Use a weak magnet here and go as far from the tang as you can. Strong magnets will pick up the tang, so even on 100% brass hilts they will react like on iron.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 13, 2019 4:49:07 GMT
That sabre looks good. Just a few small spots with pitting in the tip section it looks like on the picture. Not totally washed out lines either. Nah, not bad at all. That scabbard could use some work though. The dents I mean. Funny, because yesterday evening I decided to take on a very dented British Pre regulation drummer sabre. Little thing, so easy to handle and what's more important, made from brass. That means thin walls. Going to make a ,, mold '' how do you call it? from strips of 1.5 mm liner triplex and see what happens. I do not know much about British sabres and swords though, so for a lot of answers you should ask Dave or Edelweiss or follow Edelweiss suggestions and look at other forums. Tom Nardi does the denting thing but it will cost you. If though, the scabbard walls for some reason are thin, like I had on my Portuguese Reeves you could try yourself. Most of the work sits in making the insert. (what is the term, mandrel?) As for taking out some if not all of that pitting, I should say give it a try. It is not rocket science. I will gladly assist you on a stand by basis. No problem. If you were to take out some or most of the pitting it doesn't follow that the entire blade has to be done to. Work on the tip can just be blended in and you'll have a nice and shiny blade without changing its character. It will look just as ,,antique '' as it did before, only better maintained. As to the hilt: I do not see brass in the pictures. What I think I see is German silver. As far as I know these hilts left the factory highly polished. I see no evidence of that either. Did the magnet thing yet? Use a weak magnet here and go as far from the tang as you can. Strong magnets will pick up the tang, so even on 100% brass hilts it will react like on iron. I used a weak fridge magnet just now. i can confirm that the hilt is not magnetic, also it cleaned up like other brass hilts Ive had when I worked on it last night. Lots of greenish brown gunk came off.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 13, 2019 4:52:35 GMT
So not German silver either. Think about my proposal. I will be happy to guide you through the tip work.
Cheers.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 13, 2019 4:54:24 GMT
So not German silver either. Think about my proposal. I will be happy to guide you through the tip work. Cheers. Thanks man, I appreciate it but this one wont be in my care for long. Mr Williams got his hands on something even nicer that I will be purchasing once I flip this odd duck.
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Post by brower on Mar 28, 2022 16:50:22 GMT
Do you still have this sword? I have an identical piece, with the same markings.
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