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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 6, 2019 4:00:31 GMT
I just picked up this mystery sabre that looks just like a British 1821 LCS, except it has a brown leather grip and brass fittings. At first I though it was a militia variant, but the yeomantry 1821 has a brass scabbard and no ears on the backstrap. I then considered the US 1833 Dragoon sword, but it would have to be some weird import because this doesnt look like the standard for that pattern either. Anyone have some idea what I'm dealing with here? The sabre is apparently marked "W.T. and H.Sargant"
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 6, 2019 5:54:02 GMT
Sargant is a legitimate English Sword Maker. How long is the blade? NCO saber possibly?
On the subject of British variants, SFI is still the best place to ask.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 6, 2019 6:02:44 GMT
Sargant is a legitimate English Sword Maker. How long is the blade? NCO saber possibly? On the subject of British variants, SFI is still the best place to ask. The seller listed it as having a 35 inch blade which seems in line with normal 1821's
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 6, 2019 6:30:23 GMT
It's a fackin cool sword is what it is.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 6, 2019 19:20:07 GMT
Still no leads after a night of sleuthing. It's probably gonna have a simple answer like "There was some variantion with the Yeoman 1821's" but until I know for sure...
The thing that bugs me the more I think about it is the brown leather grip. For the life of me, I cant remember ever having seen a british sword with a brown leather grip.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 6, 2019 20:04:11 GMT
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 6, 2019 23:03:14 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 7, 2019 0:38:31 GMT
For what it's worth, I had a P1821 imported into the US, and it had the regulation steel hilt but with copper wire. That was by Tiffany however, not Sargant. The sabre in the other forum thread looks like it has an officers blade by the proportions, I don't think it's British though, but it could be an American import though of course, as the saying goes everything is confederate until proven otherwise
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2019 2:01:07 GMT
Sargant from Oldswords (not a definitive all encompassing database) England London Sargant & Son 1835 1838 2 Coleman St England London Sargant Brothers 1839 1848 2 Coleman St England Birmingham Sargant & Son 1835 1838 74 Edmund St England Birmingham Sargant Brothers 1847 74 & 75 Edmund St England Birmingham Sargant Brothers 1849 74 Edmund St England Birmingham Sargant Brothers 1850 74 Edmund St and Steam Mills, Charlotte St England Birmingham Sargant, William Lucas 1852 1865 74 Edmund St England Birmingham Sargant, William Lucas 1868 1879 35 Whittall St England Birmingham Sargant, William 1803 Lionel St England Birmingham Woolley, James 1785 1788 Square England Birmingham Woolley, James & Co 1790 1797 Edmund St England Birmingham Woolley & Deakin 1800 1803 Edmund St England Birmingham Woolley, Deakin & Dutton 1808 1812 Edmund St England Birmingham Woolley, Deakin & Plimley 1808 1812 Deritend Mill England Birmingham Woolley & Sargant 1815 1816 Edmund St England Birmingham Woolley, Sargant & Crane 1818 1820 Edmund St England Birmingham Woolley & Sargant 1821 1825 74 Edmund St England Birmingham Woolley, Sargant & Fairfax 1826 1834 74 Edmund St Not really my forte but an observation or so would be British use of brass for staff and nco. Not a pipeback. The demand for the m1833 not a huge priority or demand. Could it be a British use artillery staff or nco sword? I dunno
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2019 2:16:24 GMT
For what it's worth, I had a P1821 imported into the US, and it had the regulation steel hilt but with copper wire. That was by Tiffany however, not Sargant. The sabre in the other forum thread looks like it has an officers blade by the proportions, I don't think it's British though, but it could be an American import though of course, as the saying goes everything is confederate until proven otherwise You would mean the non-regulation steel hilt, right? The only US producer and contractor I am aware of for the m1833 was Ames and those are most definitely brass. The design and manufacture was not limited to cavalry but also topographical engineers. The Ames wire was wound like a spring, or similar to a wound guitar string. Other little minutae are stuff like the thumb rest on the backstraps (smooth or checkered or absent).
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 7, 2019 3:29:31 GMT
Closest I've found yet. This was a Civil War sword I'm assuming was hilted in New York. The blade was made in Solingen.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2019 4:58:28 GMT
3+3=16
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 7, 2019 5:06:32 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 7, 2019 7:22:56 GMT
For what it's worth, I had a P1821 imported into the US, and it had the regulation steel hilt but with copper wire. That was by Tiffany however, not Sargant. The sabre in the other forum thread looks like it has an officers blade by the proportions, I don't think it's British though, but it could be an American import though of course, as the saying goes everything is confederate until proven otherwise You would mean the non-regulation steel hilt, right? The only US producer and contractor I am aware of for the m1833 was Ames and those are most definitely brass. The design and manufacture was not limited to cavalry but also topographical engineers. The Ames wire was wound like a spring, or similar to a wound guitar string. Other little minutae are stuff like the thumb rest on the backstraps (smooth or checkered or absent). I mean the 1821 pattern style swords brought in by Tiffany, that were in effect the P1821 hilts, but with copper wiring, not the M1833. Comparing to a P1821 in my collection the only real non regulation aspect worth mentioning is the wire, as far as the hilt goes, when comparing it to the standard p1821. But yeah, for all intents and purposes it is a non regulation sword and hilt.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 12:48:22 GMT
I was having coffee while regarding Fitch&Waldo a bit. Almost certainly a sword imported intact and plated iron/steel. Although Wylie does regard the firm assembling from imported parts. Fitch has a history both before and after Waldo, going on to be Abercrombie & Fitch. While looking for my notes on the old NYC Maiden Lane glass arcade history, I came across another in my saved files that US Dragoon enthusiasts might enjoy. I think this is on Old Swords as well, or otherwise shared with me at some point. A 1979 US Dragoons Man At Arms article drive.google.com/file/d/0B9AOFMA8y3ODam9fT0syekNXMFE/view?Too big to upload here but that should link and open ok. The NYC arcade article is lost to me at the moment but an old indoor mall opened in 1827 that encompassed several sword retailers. I think I posted it here years ago but can't find the thread or files. This is in regard to Maiden Lane.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 8, 2019 13:30:15 GMT
Update: I got in touch with Matt Easton, probably one of the biggest experts on Victorian Military Swords and he confirmed this is a made for export saber. While he could not definitely say where it was exported to, he said the leading candidates were Portugal, Spain, India, or the United States. Of those listed, he said the United States was the most likely. Barring the sword having additional markings that lead me to believe it was exported elsewhere, I'll take Easton's word on this one
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 14:02:33 GMT
No, he is not. He is, possibly, the most known name (due to his media presence) and his expertise gained from the knowledge of others and his associative time spent at SFI. What you got was a best guess and I am quite sure little more than that. Did he offer up any references? Offer any examples of his guesses? I have little doubt he started with Portugal because he knows next to nothing about the US sword industry. What he does know (for sure) is the late 19th century Portuguese sword use (steel hilt).
Get in touch with Richard Dellar and post around to sites I have mentioned. Richard as well still a student, as are all of us but he is the at the top of the food chain, with Matt down around the middle tier of authority with "experts" like myself.
5+6=13
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 14:09:29 GMT
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 8, 2019 14:32:17 GMT
No, he is not. He is, possibly, the most known name (due to his media presence) and his expertise gained from the knowledge of others and his associative time spent at SFI. What you got was a best guess and I am quite sure little more than that. Did he offer up any references? Offer any examples of his guesses? I have little doubt he started with Portugal because he knows next to nothing about the US sword industry. What he does know (for sure) is the late 19th century Portuguese sword use (steel hilt). Get in touch with Richard Dellar and post around to sites I have mentioned. Richard as well still a student, as are all of us but he is the at the top of the food chain, with Matt down around the middle tier of authority with "experts" like myself. 5+6=13 I think you're splitting hairs here. I said "probably" and "one of the" as qualifiers. I'm not claiming "Matt Easton is the infallible fountain of Victorian sword knowledge." I think it's fair to accept his thoughts given that he has spent most of his professional life studying, trading, and teaching about Victorian swords. Furthermore, he did specifically say that while it is indeed an export, confirming to where will be tricky without additional markings, something I would not at all be surprised to hear from other experts. I think he just listed places where the 1821 saw export to, and placed America as the most likely of the group, because as you yourself said, the Iberian exports had steel hilts, and while he didn't specify why he thought India was less likely, that possibility always struck me as unlikely since Indian troops seemed to go for leather scabbards, no hanging rings, and broader more curved blades.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 8, 2019 14:37:48 GMT
Also I know what I got was his best guess..that's why I talked about most likely place of export. Im not taking what he gave me as gospel and he's not claiming to have provided that.
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